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Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

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Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#141

Post by cess11 »

pjc50 wrote: post #69
scott_w wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every dystopian film or movie starts with some tyrannical society and a resistance movement. Now imagine you made resistance impossible, which is what perfect law enforcement will do. I dunno, the Nazis did a fucking good job without Digital ID. They weren't overthrown by a resistance movement, they were crushed by the combined might of the Allied and Soviet armies.

We're also seeing how this plays out with ICE in the US: they're doing random street sweeps, and then the burden of proof is on the victim. They're not stopped by the lack of an ID system.

Are you sure they aren't using mobile phone data collection?

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#142

Post by scott_w »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #108
scott_w wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, you also need proof of address to open a bank account. Which someone moving to the UK won’t have yet. This limits their options of bank accounts.

Which has no relation to Digital IDs whatsoever... and again most banks have accounts that cater for this situation.

Allow me to repeat myself:

> This limits their options of bank accounts.

Now this:

> Which has no relation to Digital IDs whatsoever

Other countries use their ID systems for exactly this purpose, so I don't see how this has "no relation."

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#143

Post by scott_w »

terminalshort wrote: post #116
scott_w wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the UK and listening to people who don't have things like passports, it sounds like it'll make proving your right to work much easier for people, too. I've spoken to friends who have foreign relatives and they've also pointed out the problem the UK has which is: 1. To open a bank account you need an address 2. To rent somewhere (get an address), you need a bank account 3. See above The same happens for children…

In the US you can just tell the bank an address and they will type it in the computer. They make zero effort to verify it. They will even print a piece of paper with that new address on it that you can take down to the DMV and get an ID with that address printed on it. Is this a lot different in the UK?

That's not the case in the UK. You need a utility bill (gas, electric, council tax, bank statement) or an existing bank customer to verify your identity. It's only in the past 5-10 years that electronic statements have been accepted. Meeting customers in person is becoming less common, so I worry for, say, women whose husbands handle all the bills.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#144

Post by octo888 »

pjc50 wrote: post #120
agedclock wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry you are totally misrepresenting how difficult it is. Here is the checklist: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/68b6b7e7536d6... > If you don’t have a passport, for instance, it’s much harder for a UK citizen to prove their right to work in the UK, for which your employer is liable if they get it wrong. No it isn't. You need a Birth Certificate and a previous paycheck and something that has your NI n…

Don't forget needing to get it countersigned by someone sufficiently middle-class. https://www.gov.uk/countersigning-passport-applications/acce...

> someone sufficiently middle-class.

The accuracy of this made me chuckle out loud!

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#145

Post by agedclock »

scott_w wrote: post #139
agedclock wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with passport applications. He is talking about right to work checks. There is nothing excessive about them and they does not require even photo-card ID e.g. driving license / passport. Also you don't have to insert your personal brand of politics into every discussion. There is nothing outrageous about the list of professions of counter signers. All they are wanting is someone that can be iden…

A driving license isn’t sufficient for right to work checks because you can have a driving license without being able to work. For shits and giggles, I just looked up the checker on the UK Gov website and… if you don’t have a passport or easy access to your birth certificate, you don’t have enough evidence of right to work. Is this possible for most people? Yes. Does it leave groups excluded? Absolutely! https://www.…

> A driving license isn’t sufficient for right to work checks because you can have a driving license without being able to work.

I never said that you required a driving license. I said that at driving license was photo-card ID.

You need a passport or birth cert and NI number as a British Citizen for a right to work check. Most employers also want proof of address, so bring a utility bill.

I've been through this process about 3 times in the last 5 years. It isn't difficult or onerous.

> For shits and giggles, I just looked up the checker on the UK Gov website and… if you don’t have a passport or easy access to your birth certificate, you don’t have enough evidence of right to work.

I actually posted the checklist. I am quite aware what is required.

You can literally order replacements for a birth certificate easily. A replacement birth cert can be got for £12.50 and takes 4 days to receive.

https://www.gov.uk/order-copy-birth-death-marriage-certifica...

Nothing about this is "excessive".

> Is this possible for most people? Yes. Does it leave groups excluded? Absolutely!

People that can't produce basic documents it excludes.

You were claiming that the right to work checks were "excessive". Producing one or two documents that you should have is not "excessive".

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#146

Post by DrProtic »

phatfish wrote: post #138
hhh wrote: post #2

I dunno man, I migrated to the Netherlands and our digital ID is an amazing system that literally makes my life easier anytime i need to interact with something. An open standard for the world to use for this seems like the ideal way you would want it to happen. I also personally think we are going to need some form of digital id and hopefully some sort of attribute based credential implementation à la the DECODE pro…

Agreed, all the scaremongering is hilarious. As if a digital ID is what is going to be used to repress the common (wo)man. News flash, if your "liberal western government" wanted to they have more than enough tools to do it already. See all the repressive governments with institutions stuck in the 60s. - Don't trust corporations that you have no control over. - Vote wisely for the government you do have some control…

In the same breath you mention repressive governments and how you have control over governments. Which one is it?

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#147

Post by captn3m0 »

alwa wrote: post #20

The author asserts that reports have documented deaths of starvation due to Aadhaar identification issues. That seems pretty extreme and horrifying. The author doesn’t cite their source for that claim—is anyone familiar with the underlying work?

> While the government remains in denial about the deaths highlighted by Right to Food activists, the Minister admits that Santoshi Kumar, 11, died because her family ration card was deleted for not being linked to Aadhaar. Taramani Sahu, a foot soldier of the Right to Food Campaign, says she had raised this issue with the district authorities months before Santoshi died. The administration assured intervention, but that came only after the child’s death.

Jharkhand has the most of these, due to the underlying issues and activism on Right to Food in the region.

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/death-by...

I also remember a case where an infant Aadhaar was issued by CSC at the hospital and was celebrated as a win because the doctors refused emergency Heart Surgery without the infant having an Aadhaar.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#148

Post by scott_w »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #128
pjc50 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you have an address, you have a proof of address No! This is another one of those things that ends up being a serious problem for a few people, because the current proof of address standard is "utility bill". > you are changing topic This seems to be particularly bad in the "digital ID" discussion, almost every speaker including official sources seems to mean something slightly different by this phrase.

> because the current proof of address standard is "utility bill". Because utility bills are the simplest. Obviously you can show a tenancy or lodger agreement, or letters from "official sources". If you have nothing then Digital IDs won't help you anyway because, if they do include address, you will also need to start by providing a proof of address to the Digital ID system!

Most tenancy agreements are just printed off by a landlord, so they're absolutely useless as proof of address.

> if they do include address, you will also need to start by providing a proof of address to the Digital ID system!

Yes, you're correct, however, there are starting points (like what's needed for a passport application). The difference is that, if there's a legal requirement to have one, then the government will provide ways for more people to get it for no cost. Unlike a passport that costs over £100 (+ the photos).

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#149

Post by deep_lol »

apexalpha wrote: post #129
deep_lol wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget couple of things: Dutch digid is tightly coupled with your address. All documents only go via regular post to your registered address in the Netherlands. No address? Moved to another one? Didn't register new address? Moved out of country? Good luck getting or updating digid. Digid verification goes to your phone. Lost phone or get stolen? Changed mobile number? Guess what, no digid for you anymore.

You can just install and register a new Digid App it's not that complicated. I mean people have physical passports and they sometimes lose those which doesn't seem to be a blocking issue.

Oh man, you probably never used it. You cannot register digid without paper documents being sent by post to your registered address in the Netherlands.

Also, once you go beyond very basic services you might discover digid only works if you are a citizen. Otherwise you are back to papers.

Re: Digital ID – The New Chains of Capitalist Surveillance

#150

Post by scott_w »

agedclock wrote: post #145
scott_w wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A driving license isn’t sufficient for right to work checks because you can have a driving license without being able to work. For shits and giggles, I just looked up the checker on the UK Gov website and… if you don’t have a passport or easy access to your birth certificate, you don’t have enough evidence of right to work. Is this possible for most people? Yes. Does it leave groups excluded? Absolutely! https://www.…

> A driving license isn’t sufficient for right to work checks because you can have a driving license without being able to work. I never said that you required a driving license. I said that at driving license was photo-card ID. You need a passport or birth cert and NI number as a British Citizen for a right to work check. Most employers also want proof of address, so bring a utility bill. I've been through this proc…

Your privilege is showing.

> You need a passport for a right to work check. I've been through this process about 3 times in the last 5 years. It isn't difficult or onerous.

A new passport costs over £100 for a paper application. That can be prohibitive for people.

> You can literally order replacements for these easily. A replacement birth cert can be got for £12.50 and takes 4 days to receive.

These are additional costs, it's also an extra £3.50 to find it (taking 15 days), and possibly another £38 to get it quickly.

So yes, these are all costs that add up to exclude people from partaking in society.

And all of this assumes your employer knows what the hell they're doing. Given the fines are painful, it's entirely possible your employer refuses valid documents "just in case" and sticks to the ones they've relied on in the past.

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