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Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

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Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#141

Post by bix6 »

bigiain wrote: post #122
ajross wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the enforcers dgaf about you. This is the attitude that lands otherwise-normal-seeming people in jail. They dgaf about you until they do. Maybe the prosecutor needs an easy win. Maybe they have a wealthy patron you offended. You don't know. And casual cheating becomes criminal very quickly. Charlie Javice, to get back to the core subject, seemed to genuinely think she was on the right side of the line. All she was…

> I think a lot of people in our world need to spend a little more time in introspection. Sadly, I suspect most or all of the investor class of people "in our world" have done this introspection. They've checked with their peers and lawyers, and decided it's a perfectly acceptable risk to have the founders and staff of a company they're already invested in do illegal things and potentially end up in jail, if it makes…

So much

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#142

Post by bjt »

throwaway173738 wrote: post #138
tpoacher wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a nice Jordan Peterson quote: > There was a lesson to learn from the holocaust. We're always reminded that: "Never forget, we've learned our lesson." "What was the lesson?" That's the question. The lesson is, "You're the Nazi". No-one wants to learn that; If you were there, that would have been you. You might think "Well, I'd be Oskar Schindler and I'd be rescuing the Jews." It's like, no, afraid not. You'd a…

You might want to think about why Petersen wants you to think you’re the Nazi. What change is he trying to effect in our culture, and how does that belief support his desire? Rhetoric always aims to effect some change in the attitude of the listener, and never without some benefit of the speaker.

> You might want to think about why Petersen wants you to think you’re the Nazi. What change is he trying to effect in our culture, and how does that belief support his desire? Rhetoric always aims to effect some change in the attitude of the listener, and never without some benefit of the speaker.

What benefit do you think he's trying to get from it? I'm honestly trying to figure out the nefarious angle and coming up blank.

It seems to me like a very similar sentiment to that great "are we the baddies?" sketch from Mitchell and Webb. [1] I see both as an exercise in moral humility.

See the Milgram experiment, or the Asch experiment. Most people do cave to pressure from authorities and the group. Everybody believes they're they exception. Statistically, most of them are wrong.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#143

Post by dmoy »

tverbeure wrote: post #135
DennisP wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My claim is that that's a bad decision, for exactly that reason. Job loss can happen for any number of reasons, often without warning. Getting a mortgage without any cushion for job loss is a huge risk. Note also that I'm talking about highly-paid software engineers, not about people in general. Lots of people in the US make way less money than senior software engineers, and they manage to get by. Live at that level…

No, you’re claiming they have a spending issue, with the typical judgemental holier-than-thou undertone. My example is not that. And I’m talking about my SWE neighbors in SV who have a desire to buy their own house just like almost everybody else. It’s just wrong to claim they have a spending issue. They may be highly paid, but the house prices are commensurately higher too. It is nearly impossible in the US in gener…

If you make say $400k a year and you buy a $2.5M house, at some level you do have a spending issue.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#144

Post by KittenInABox »

DennisP wrote: post #130
tverbeure wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know plenty of people who saved for years to get a downpayment for a house and then used all of that for just that. After that, it will take a while to replenish their emergency fund with very little margin of error. A job loss would be devastating.

My claim is that that's a bad decision, for exactly that reason. Job loss can happen for any number of reasons, often without warning. Getting a mortgage without any cushion for job loss is a huge risk. Note also that I'm talking about highly-paid software engineers, not about people in general. Lots of people in the US make way less money than senior software engineers, and they manage to get by. Live at that level…

> Lots of people in the US make way less money than senior software engineers, and they manage to get by.

No, I'm pretty sure this is getting less and less true actually. Credit card debt is at an all time high. Homelessness is rising. Medical debt is crushing.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#145

Post by ekianjo »

amelius wrote: post #27
sltr wrote: post #3

Software developers should sign a code of ethics, like other professions do and then cite it when asked to do unscrupulous things. This would work for activities that aren't illegal but still unethical, like defaulting user privacy choices to open/public. Citing professional organizations like ACM or IEEE would deter retaliation.

Yes, the Hippocratic Oath works quite well even if it has no legal underpinnings, so why not use the same idea for developers? Indeed ACM and IEEE could draft one.

> the Hippocratic Oath works quite well

This reads like a bad joke. Ever heard of the opoid crisis?

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#146

Post by ekianjo »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #42
amelius wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the Hippocratic Oath works quite well even if it has no legal underpinnings, so why not use the same idea for developers? Indeed ACM and IEEE could draft one.

Are you kidding? Misconduct among doctors is rampant, special highlight on dentists: https://archive.ph/70Zk5

Yeah some people choose to wear rosy glasses when it comes to the medical profession. They can see corruption around them but they can't imagine it exists in every walks of life. Kind of gell-man amnesia.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#147

Post by salawat »

ghssds wrote: post #123
testing22321 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Na, just ban all of them and all their families from ever having health insurance again so they can suffer the same fate they doomed others too intentionally . Make an example and all that.

It's counter-productive to punish someone for something out of their control. One should not be punished for his parents', siblings' or childs' actions.

Ah, but the family of the canceled policyholders should suffer for losing their mother/sister/daughters?

Make decisions to harm others, don't be surprised if it blows back in kind. Golden Rule is there for a reason. Treat others as you would have them do unto you.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#148

Post by AdieuToLogic »

potato3732842 wrote: post #13
comrade1234 wrote: post #6

I was working with someone on a large government project. At the beginning I told him that we cannot pad our hours at the end of the year to run the contract out and then make up for it with extra hours in the next year like we do with business clients because it is illegal and further because it's a $1M+ contract could lead to prison. Of course I found out that he was going into our billing software and adding hours…

You had record of your correspondance with the lawyer. All you had to do was report it to the liaison and keep punching the clock. Unless you were getting paid more because of the overages the enforcers dgaf about you.

>> Of course I found out that he was going into our billing software and adding hours to me. I had to talk to a lawyer and he recommended I report it to the gao.

> All you had to do was report it to the liaison and keep punching the clock. Unless you were getting paid more because of the overages the enforcers dgaf about you.

That is not how fraudulent billing in a federal contract ends.

The DOJ prosecutors hammer the person documented as having submitted fraudulent billing and then go after everyone else involved. There is an outside chance in this case the innocent person originally identified does not get indicted and/or convicted of defrauding the government. But there is no doubt this process will cost the innocent person many thousands of dollars in legal fees just to stay out of prison.

The advice of "report it to the GAO" and then GTFO[0] is the way to go.

EDIT:

If a person continues to "keep punching the clock" knowing someone else is actively defrauding the government by "going into our billing software and adding hours to me", there is a nontrivial risk of being charged for conspiracy to defraud the US[1].

0 - https://www.dictionary.com/e/acronyms/gtfo/

1 - https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual...

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#149

Post by DennisP »

tverbeure wrote: post #135
DennisP wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My claim is that that's a bad decision, for exactly that reason. Job loss can happen for any number of reasons, often without warning. Getting a mortgage without any cushion for job loss is a huge risk. Note also that I'm talking about highly-paid software engineers, not about people in general. Lots of people in the US make way less money than senior software engineers, and they manage to get by. Live at that level…

No, you’re claiming they have a spending issue, with the typical judgemental holier-than-thou undertone. My example is not that. And I’m talking about my SWE neighbors in SV who have a desire to buy their own house just like almost everybody else. It’s just wrong to claim they have a spending issue. They may be highly paid, but the house prices are commensurately higher too. It is nearly impossible in the US in gener…

I mean, it's been the standard personal finance advice for decades. Step one is to set aside six months of emergency expenses. If you have an above-average income, you're capable of doing that. It's not "judgmental" to point out that this is indeed an intelligent strategy, just as advisors have been suggesting for years and years.

You yourself said that for the people you know who bought a house without that, "a job loss would be devastating." So you seem to agree with me and the personal finance advisors.

I did not say they had "a spending issue" or that they were "wasteful with money." Those were your terms just now. I simply said they should have rethought. You're turning that into some moral judgement, when all I'm saying is that it's bad strategy.

Re: Asked to do something illegal at work? Here's what these software engineers did

#150

Post by renewiltord »

testing22321 wrote: post #119
array_key_first wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think, for most people, getting the shit beaten out of them is a preferable outcome to losing their job. For most people, their job is the only thing standing between them and being homeless, losing their car, losing their kids, their partner, etc. This is why having a culture that treats firing people as no big deal leads to wack ass incentives. You can make people do almost anything if you threaten their job enou…

That may be true in the US, but very far from reality in countries that have universal healthcare and a strong social safety net.

One can only conclude that the VW engineers were uniquely immoral, since they have a safety net and nonetheless committed massive scale fraud. At least in America it's coercion. In Europe, it's willful evil.
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