I have worked very closely with some autistic people and they were very smart in a human dictionary type way- knew a huge amount of facts but hit a wall very hard with higher levels of abstraction. Two things I see as required for cutting edge math or physics are intellectual humility and a lot of intuitive feeling for how to approach problems. Another way to say this would be not missing the forest for the trees.
A human-accelerated neuron type potentially underlying autism in humans
141–150 of 178 posts
Re: A human-accelerated neuron type potentially underlying autism in humans
#142I have worked very closely with some autistic people and they were very smart in a human dictionary type way- knew a huge amount of facts but hit a wall very hard with higher levels of abstraction. Two things I see as required for cutting edge math or physics are intellectual humility and a lot of intuitive feeling for how to approach problems. Another way to say this would be not missing the forest for the trees.
It's kind of wild how the same traits (hyperfocus, detail orientation, pattern sensitivity) can be superpowers in some contexts but limiting in others that require leaps of intuition or comfort with ambiguity
Re: A human-accelerated neuron type potentially underlying autism in humans
#143Pretty clear theres a tradeoff between social intelligence and other forms of intelligence
That's not "pretty clear" at all--and you've provided no argument. As a lifetime member and former officer of Mensa, I know many people with both very high IQ and very high EQ.
Re: A human-accelerated neuron type potentially underlying autism in humans
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think boys just present symptoms that are more obvious. Girls with autism are very often much better at masking than boys are.Young girls also tend to fixate on more 'socially acceptable' topics that make that fixation less obvious
Are symptoms not the sole means of diagnosis? So if girls present less symptoms then aren't they therefore less autistic? Or, alternatively, if they present different symptoms then perhaps they have something else?
Re: A human-accelerated neuron type potentially underlying autism in humans
#145There's an ambiguity in the title, reflected in some comments below. It can be understood either as the claim that "in a particular human being, to be intelligent as measured by IQ means that you are more likely to be autistic", suggesting for example a trade-off between social and general intelligence; or the claim that "the evolution of the human brain and so human intelligence as such, which characterizes both tho…
> in a particular human being, to be intelligent as measured by IQ means that you are more likely to be autistic I find this part to be a really strong highlight of our change in perception of autism and what it means to be "autistic" or "on the spectrum." Perhaps due to the broadening of the spectrum or just an odd association with success and spectrum attributes, we now strongly associate intelligence with spectrum…
Re: A human-accelerated neuron type potentially underlying autism in humans
#146I have autism, I got a temp ban from one of the big autism subreddits because before I knew autism, I thought autistic people who seem to dominate the IT industry were simply the next evolution, far more logical, dont let emotions cloud your judgement.
But I've since understood better that indeed it's a "price" or "cost". Having no friends, no social life, and having random people for no reason at all hate you is quite a shit life to live.
Re: A human-accelerated neuron type potentially underlying autism in humans
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They will follow instructions from a workplace superior with zero push-back Zero push-back? Or zero push-back in front of the rest of the group? Humans are pack animals, highly evolved for social connection, and ostracism can be life threatening. The benefits of group membership and cohesion are enough that it is worth tolerating some mistakes and suboptimal outcomes because over time the expected utility for indiv…
I totally agree that if it’s “just” politics or some purely social situation, then sure, the optimal behaviour is the one that prioritises the group dynamics and social pecking order. Even in practical matters like hunting or war, obeying more senior leaders can have a net positive outcome because of their greater experience, etc… This is likely true in many “low information; high variability” situations… which is a…
> The problem is that we have one set of wiring, one set of instincts, and one set of common social behaviours. These just don’t work in “unnatural” scenarios for which we aren’t evolved, such as pure mathematics or computer science.
Social behavior is so complex that this is not a useful way to frame it. Most people see nonsense when they examine something they don’t understand.
> The maths just doesn’t care about your seniority and a proof is a proof irrespective of the age of the author.
You’re conflating sycophancy with tact. They are extremely different.
> To truly excel in those “hard sciences” the default wiring isn’t optimal. […] The article states that non-default wiring has the downside of also causing autism.
Statements like this are like bubble wrap people subconsciously wrap around their egos to protect it from things they’re insecure about. Most disagreements in the hard sciences don’t stem from people’s feelings obfuscating math. And when you’re trying to organize a team, solicit people’s best efforts to find a creative path forward with a nebulous problem, inspire people about your research to secure funding, inspire people to work on your problem rather than some other problem, mediating conflicts… all of those dreaded “soft skills” are every bit as important to science as the math as soon as your team is larger than one.
If your mental makeup affords you the ability to step back and say “hold on, I think we’ve got the numbers wrong, here,” then that’s fantastic. If you feel compelled to tell people they’re wrong, you’re probably getting something out of that, emotionally, and you just don’t realize how incredibly counterproductive doing so is. Not being able to effectively leverage a team to collaboratively solve a problem is very very bad for hard sciences, no matter how precise the numbers are, because you’re going to generate a lot fewer of them if nobody’s willing to work with you. Beyond that, in my experience, autists can often communicate really effectively together, but it can break down really quickly as soon as a less cut-and-dried conflict arises, especially if one of them has difficulty regulating their emotional responses, or easily feels alienated. Mediating that requires someone that’s able to recognize how and why someone might be hurting someone else’s feelings, and say “ok, let’s hold on for a second.”
And there are so many kinds of non-default wiring that trying to associate one with hard sciences doesn’t make sense. I went to art school with a ton of autists doing tech art: as a non-autist (with a mean case of ADHD,) I was the most technical one there by a mile. My friend’s wife is an autist artist that is absolutely allergic to math.
You should really challenge your assumptions, here. Consider your susceptibility to selection bias, overconfidence in your ability to gage the causes and effects of social motivations, and consider that many of your strengths may be far less coupled to autism than you imagine they are.
Re: A human-accelerated neuron type potentially underlying autism in humans
#148Perhaps we are seeing evolution unfold in real time. The human brain is under constant pressure from modern life: technology, nonstop information, and increasingly complex social systems. Autism may not be a limitation, but the emergence of a cognitive style better suited to these challenges. Some researchers suggest we are at the beginning of a divergence in human cognition. If so, autism could be one of the first s…
Re: A human-accelerated neuron type potentially underlying autism in humans
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
> They will follow instructions from a workplace superior with zero push-back Zero push-back? Or zero push-back in front of the rest of the group? Humans are pack animals, highly evolved for social connection, and ostracism can be life threatening. The benefits of group membership and cohesion are enough that it is worth tolerating some mistakes and suboptimal outcomes because over time the expected utility for indiv…
I totally agree that if it’s “just” politics or some purely social situation, then sure, the optimal behaviour is the one that prioritises the group dynamics and social pecking order. Even in practical matters like hunting or war, obeying more senior leaders can have a net positive outcome because of their greater experience, etc… This is likely true in many “low information; high variability” situations… which is a…
Cause (1) cannot usually be resolved without some sort of technological innovation.
Cause (2) is quite interesting because it is a social problem.
For example, someone comes to you with a markov decision problem and insists that no form of reinforcement learning could be a viable solution. Why would they do this? Probably because their understanding of RL differs from yours. Or your understanding of the problem differs from theirs. This can be solved by communication.
Stated differently, the topology of your “semantic map” of the domain differs from theirs. To resolve it you must be able to obtain an accurate mapping of their local topology around the point of disagreement onto yours.
Re: A human-accelerated neuron type potentially underlying autism in humans
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
> in a particular human being, to be intelligent as measured by IQ means that you are more likely to be autistic I find this part to be a really strong highlight of our change in perception of autism and what it means to be "autistic" or "on the spectrum." Perhaps due to the broadening of the spectrum or just an odd association with success and spectrum attributes, we now strongly associate intelligence with spectrum…
I still think it's odd how aspergers disappeared as a label. Made more sense than a spectrum with both really smart people and really stupid ones.
Hans Asperger was a Nazi collaborator who drew an imaginary line between "less autistic" children, whom he believed could still be valuable to society, and "more autistic" children who were considered to be a threat to their racial purity - so he murdered them. That's the only reason this distinction came to be.
Autism "spectrum" isn't about severity at all - it's a spectrum because every person has a unique presentation and combination of challenges, e.g. sensory processing, communication, relationships, emotional processing, and cognitive rigidity. "Asperger syndrome" was just one specific combination of those that drew a line between people who are worthy of life and those who aren't.