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Evanston orders Flock to remove reinstalled cameras

evanstonroundtable.com

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Re: Evanston orders Flock to remove reinstalled cameras

#141

Post by stavros »

renewiltord wrote: post #57
donmcronald wrote: post #8

Even though it's become commonplace in the last 20 years, I'm still shocked to see how companies can pretty much ignore the law, do whatever they want, and have everyone involved shielded from any kind of significant consequences. In situations like this, I think the person at the top of the chain that told employees to perform the illegal installations should be arrested and charged. On top of that, the company shou…

Well, if we consider it fine for people to commit crimes like shoplift, rob, or assault people it seems fairly normal to permit groups of people to violate the law too. Lots of fans of Luigi Mangione and this hasn't directly killed anyone yet. I'd say it's just a general tolerance to the idea that the rules we have are baroque and anything goes when trying to reach your aims. This seems fairly cross politically unify…

The difference is that people are fans of Luigi Mangione because he enforced a punishment for what people feel should be illegal. You're trying to paint vigilante justice with the same brush as lawlessness, when in fact it's the opposite.

One is breaking the law to punish someone that the law failed to, the other is breaking the law to avoid punishment.

The CEO caused vast death and suffering with the policies he enacted in the name of profit, yet the law didn't touch him. Enforcing what the people think should be enforced isn't the same as enforcing what the people think shouldn't be enforced (mass surveillance). It is, in fact, the opposite.

Re: Evanston orders Flock to remove reinstalled cameras

#142

Post by potato3732842 »

sokoloff wrote: post #100
mschuster91 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is extremely important for a civil society not only that predictable laws are put into place, but also that predictable enforcement of those laws exist. At the moment, this doesn't exist either. Particularly on the low end of offenses, selective enforcement and racial profiling run rampant , and not just in the US. Any decent developed society takes laws that have gone outdated off the books entirely - the excep…

> Particularly on the low end of offenses, selective enforcement and racial profiling run rampant I think most people will agree to this. When they do, some will be thinking of disparate enforcement of traffic regulations and others lax enforcement of shoplifting/retail theft.

That's only the tip of the iceberg. Literally every enforcement agency targets the bottom of whatever section of the social and economic ladder they deal in.

If anything dealing with the police is actually way better than any of the civil enforcement agencies because accused criminals have "real rights" whereas all the other agencies have the same sort of kangaroo administrative sort of processes that ICE drew ire for.

Re: Evanston orders Flock to remove reinstalled cameras

#144

Post by sidewndr46 »

____mr____ wrote: post #52
serbuvlad wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I think that this instinct to fine-'em, screw-'em, etc. is profoundly authoritarian. It is extremely important for a civil society not only that predictable laws are put into place, but also that predictable enforcement of those laws exist. I jaywalk almost every day. I understand that if a cop sees me jaywalk, he will fine me. I also understand that if the cop wants to put me in jail for jaywalking, he…

> “Flock unlawfully made data collected within Evanston and the State of Illinois available to federal agencies,” Ruggie wrote, referencing the findings of Giannoulias’ audit. “This is not a procedural error; it is an intentional and unauthorized disclosure of protected data… Let it be absolutely clear: this breach is material, intentional, and cannot be cured. The City will not entertain remediation efforts or reneg…

This is so abundantly hilarious to read. Cooperating with the Federal government cannot plausibly be a crime in the United States. It'd be like if I was sentenced to a Federal pentitiary, reported in to serve my sentence and was then found guilty of collaboration with the Federal government in some state court.

Realistically if Flock didn't cooperate, the Federal government would just show up with a warrant, subpoena, or other document. Given that Flock themselves is not being investigated, there isn't really any incentive for them to go that route.

Now the state may be abundantly pissed that the Feds are in their backyard, but they have the right to regulate interstate commerce. They are entirely within their rights to also terminate the contract of course.

Re: Evanston orders Flock to remove reinstalled cameras

#145

Post by sidewndr46 »

mschuster91 wrote: post #64
serbuvlad wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, I think that this instinct to fine-'em, screw-'em, etc. is profoundly authoritarian. It is extremely important for a civil society not only that predictable laws are put into place, but also that predictable enforcement of those laws exist. I jaywalk almost every day. I understand that if a cop sees me jaywalk, he will fine me. I also understand that if the cop wants to put me in jail for jaywalking, he…

> It is extremely important for a civil society not only that predictable laws are put into place, but also that predictable enforcement of those laws exist. At the moment, this doesn't exist either. Particularly on the low end of offenses, selective enforcement and racial profiling run rampant , and not just in the US. Any decent developed society takes laws that have gone outdated off the books entirely - the excep…

There's never really been any enforcement on the low end that I am aware of. Even as a little kid I asked my dad about things like speeding, jaywalking, driving without insurance, etc. and he pointed that basically no one is actually even investigated for those things.

Re: Evanston orders Flock to remove reinstalled cameras

#147

Post by ThrowMeAway1618 »

potato3732842 wrote: post #96
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #2

Is there a good public list of Flock Safety cities? Would be particularly interesting to see where they are in blue states.

>Would be particularly interesting to see where they are in blue states The answer is going to be "the snooty inner ring suburbs and wealthy rural-ish commuter communities that already had overstaffed PDs harassing teenagers"

>>Would be particularly interesting to see where they are in blue states

>The answer is going to be "the snooty inner ring suburbs and wealthy rural-ish commuter communities that already had overstaffed PDs harassing teenagers"

TFA is about Evanston, IL[0] which is in Cook County[1] and abuts the city of Chicago.

It is relatively wealthy, but is certainly not a "rural-ish commuter community," in fact it's not suburban either.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanston%2C_Illinois

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cook_County%2C_Illinois

Re: Evanston orders Flock to remove reinstalled cameras

#148

Post by mindslight »

SlightlyLeftPad wrote: post #116
potato3732842 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engaging official channels instantly gets you on a list. These institutions aren't stupid, they're evil. Easier to just back a trailer into it or something. And if some scrappers haul the downed pole off a week after that you didn't see them. Furthermore, it's beyond naive to care about whether it's technically vandalism. You can't beat the establishment within the law because the establishment makes the law.

In theory, constitutional rights would be the ideal tool of choice on your second point. Of course that requires a civil suit against the state and really expensive attorneys. To add to your point, it’s naive to believe that those protections are effective for anyone who isn’t incredibly wealthy at this point. The issue is most people can’t afford to take a case all the way, let alone start one.

Our constitutional rights have been effectively nullified - first with a slowly creeping "it's fine if a corpo does it", then with "it's fine if the President directs it", and now recently with a shameless full-on embrace of both.

Re: Evanston orders Flock to remove reinstalled cameras

#149

Post by bippihippi1 »

flanked-evergl wrote: post #93
Frieren wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is because we are moving away from Democracy and rule of law and towards Feudalism and aristocracy. In such a system, the law is not blind but it is applied depending on the accused social status. Feudalism is not a good goverment system to produce wealth nor well-being. It is very good at concentrating the diminishing wealth in a few hands, thou.

[flagged]

democracy is the process of defining what the laws are and who enforces them. The executive branch is not allowed to decide what laws to enforce. That's what an autocracy is.

Re: Evanston orders Flock to remove reinstalled cameras

#150

Post by renewiltord »

stavros wrote: post #141
renewiltord wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, if we consider it fine for people to commit crimes like shoplift, rob, or assault people it seems fairly normal to permit groups of people to violate the law too. Lots of fans of Luigi Mangione and this hasn't directly killed anyone yet. I'd say it's just a general tolerance to the idea that the rules we have are baroque and anything goes when trying to reach your aims. This seems fairly cross politically unify…

The difference is that people are fans of Luigi Mangione because he enforced a punishment for what people feel should be illegal . You're trying to paint vigilante justice with the same brush as lawlessness, when in fact it's the opposite. One is breaking the law to punish someone that the law failed to, the other is breaking the law to avoid punishment. The CEO caused vast death and suffering with the policies he en…

The Flock guys are breaking the law to reactivate their cameras so that they can catch people doing things that are illegal or that they think should be illegal. Seems to be an exact match actually.

You have to apply some Theory of Mind. Just like you think you're doing the right thing so do they.

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