Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How can I influence others without manipulating them?

andiroberts.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 232 posts

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#141

Post by sethammons »

twodave wrote: post #17
dsubburam wrote: post #9

Persuasion that happens in good faith is a two-way street. You explain your position, but also truly listen to theirs. If you are prepared to change your own position based on what they say, then you can hope that they might change theirs based on what you say. If it is truly two way in this sense, including your best efforts to extract from the other party their strongest, potentially unexpected, arguments for their…

This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. It’s important to understand where these lines fall within yourself and those you are speaking with. Some arguments aren’t worth having in an effort to persuade, but rather they should be discussions aimed at understanding, being vulnerable…

Does the alcoholic dad who wont stop drinking have integrity? His core principles say he shouldn't back down; he's not a quitter after all.

Silly example, but I find arguments fall apart most at the edges.

I challenge you to develop a better definition of integrity. For me, integrity means I will change my mind when presented with convincing data.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#142

Post by le-mark »

This is an interesting read and reminded me of this. In the 2000s I was at a company that had a consultant come in and give each group a talk a that was essentially “how win friends and influence people” for business.

I had a relationship with this book. I had read it years before and put it into practice as part of my life. It worked, but I became jaded, yeah I could be a great friend to people but it was almost never reciprocated, and I came to believe that using the techniques in the book were manipulative and deceitful at worst, and just not genuine at best.

So the consultant got to the end and asked for questions, and I asked “isn’t this all just manipulating people and dishonest?” Be sputtered and stammered and didn’t have much of a response. My boss was not thrilled that I had called it out, I was being difficult. That started a real problem for me at that company and I eventually left.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#143

Post by TeMPOraL »

dijit wrote: post #52
voxl wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. Yet, much ink has been spilt on arguments to the contrary. Refuting some of these arguments is quite difficult, honestly, but none of the arguments really matter because they reject all the convincing evidence as conspiracy or magic. In this way, what you suggest demands significant labor on the part of the person arguing an obvious fact against an ideologue who will…

You’re being downvoted by idealists. I was an idealist, so I understand the position. Ideally, you explain your position and they explain theirs and it’s an open dialogue. Truthfully, you could be wrong about any number of things you have resolute conviction about- even things you believe are well evidenced. The cynic in me is aware that actually us as individuals have finite time and mental energy to keep debating t…

> actually us as individuals have finite time and mental energy to keep debating things which are base, and our lives are improved by just accepting some base assumptions and engaging our energy at higher levels instead of litigating the basics.

Which is precisely why most people considered Earth to be flat until it became more fashionable to consider it spherical, and continue to believe it's spherical because that remains in vogue.

I mean, it's not like people in general suddenly got gained some intrinsic reasons for getting to the true nature of things. Nah, all that changed is what you have to say so others don't think you're stupid.

Call it a more realistic take: humans are social animals. Ever since we started cooperating in groups, the social reality became more important to our survival than actual physical reality. For better or worse, that is a fact of nature. You may argue all you want that the sky is blue, but if the rest of your tribe calls it green, all you'll accomplish is to get yourself shunned and cast out and then eaten by wild animals.

"Is Earth flat or round", from the perspective of a regular person across all history: why are you asking me that question?. The answer has no direct, immediate relevance to anyone's lives - so either you're contrarian, or trying to pick a fight, or have some political angle, or just have too much idle time. Either of that means you're a potential threat. The right answer is always "flat" or "spherical" depending on the time period you live in, followed by "go away and do something useful for a change".

Note: I'm not promoting idiocy or lack of interest into the nature of things - all I'm saying, one needs to cut other people some slack. Most people aren't idiots; if they're holding on to "wrong" beliefs there's probably a damn good reason for it, and with some politically charged questions they may actually be smarter, on a pragmatic/survival level, in giving the "wrong" answer, than someone rocking the boat.

If you want to convince people, don't assume they're idiots - rather, try to connect your arguments to their experience, so getting it right matters to them, and then - that's the pragmatic/cynical part - be ready to accept that, in some cases, having the right answer doesn't matter in practice.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#145

Post by Sammi »

Leftium wrote: post #65

People will do anything for those who encourage their dreams, justify their failures, allay their fears, confirm their suspicions and help them throw rocks at their enemies. -- Blair Warren

I see a lot of whitewashing of Charlie Kirk on social media at the moment that this quote reminds me of. The guy made a killing from speaking hate and then he got killed by hate himself. Like the guy that's always in the jurassic park movies, that doesn't think letting the t-rex out will be much of a problem, and then he get's killed by the t-rex and everyone else needs to deal with the t-rex of hate and far wingism walking the streets.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#146

Post by TeMPOraL »

simonask wrote: post #99
lukan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. " Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat. That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). So I dare you to actually argue with flat earthers. It is a good way to test your basic scientific knowledge. If you poke deep, you will find, that most people learned science the way people learned re…

The thing about this particular topic is that humanity has known this fact for millennia, not because we flew or went to space, but because we sailed. Any human who has watched ships come in to a harbor would be able to trivially tell you: We see the masts before the ship. Where I grew up you can stand by the shore on a clear day and see the tree tops on the neighboring island, but not the beach. Sailing there, the b…

> Any human who has watched ships come in to a harbor would be able to trivially tell you: We see the masts before the ship.

Of which, until recently, there were very few. Civilizations developed not just on the coasts, but along the rivers, and until ~industrial revolution, the bulk of people at any given time didn't really have a chance to see the sea.

> The only way anybody can come up with "Flat Earth" is by living in the middle of a continental landmass.

Yup, that is still true for humanity; what's changed in the last few hundred years is trains, cars, airplanes, and them all becoming broadly accessible to people.

Still, that was then. Today, "flat Earthers" are mostly just peer groups of shitposters or extreme contrarians.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#147

Post by lukan »

DonHopkins wrote: post #140
lukan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The earth is not flat. This is indisputable fact. " Well, the earth you walk is indisputable flat. That all of earth is round, comes not from direct observation (except for the very few people who have been in space). So I dare you to actually argue with flat earthers. It is a good way to test your basic scientific knowledge. If you poke deep, you will find, that most people learned science the way people learned re…

Prove to me that flat earthers aren't just trolls who don't believe a word they say.

I know some who fucked up their whole life, because they believe that crazy shit for real. (Living now alone in a remote hut and waiting for the day when they come to take him away from there, because he also does not believe in paying taxes)

I can give you the adress, but maybe be a bit careful. To him you might be one of the evil NASA brainwashers.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#148

Post by gjsman-1000 »

sethammons wrote: post #141
twodave wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. It’s important to understand where these lines fall within yourself and those you are speaking with. Some arguments aren’t worth having in an effort to persuade, but rather they should be discussions aimed at understanding, being vulnerable…

Does the alcoholic dad who wont stop drinking have integrity? His core principles say he shouldn't back down; he's not a quitter after all. Silly example, but I find arguments fall apart most at the edges. I challenge you to develop a better definition of integrity. For me, integrity means I will change my mind when presented with convincing data.

The problem there though is that data completely breaks down for anything historical, philosophical, cultural, religious, miraculous, or otherwise requiring “faith.”

Anything that is not a repeatable event under a microscope has no “data” and never will.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#149

Post by lukan »

quesera wrote: post #138
lukan wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of planes are you flying? I mean, I just checked, it seems under ideal conditions one could see the curvature of earth at 10.5 km height, but to me it was not really a convincing curvature last time I did a long flight. Your experience was different?

10.5km (34.4kft) is an ordinary cruising altitude for an ordinary commercial airliner. The curvature of the earth can be quite apparent on a clear day at that altitude when flying over water. Or the midwestern US.

Well thanks, then this is what I will recommend the next time I engage with flat earthers.

Re: How can I influence others without manipulating them?

#150

Post by twodave »

teekert wrote: post #127
twodave wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fine when the question is, “What’s for dinner?” However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed. This is called having integrity. It’s important to understand where these lines fall within yourself and those you are speaking with. Some arguments aren’t worth having in an effort to persuade, but rather they should be discussions aimed at understanding, being vulnerable…

"However, there is nothing wrong with having core principles that aren’t able to be swayed" That's called being dogmatic. Sure, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but, in the face of extraordinary evidence you'd be a fool to stay unswayed and adhere to your proven false core principles.

I would venture to say that not all dogma is misplaced, despite the negative feelings that word tends to ignite. I tend to use that word more in situations where it’s clear someone hasn’t reasoned out why they believe what they believe. When I use the word “principles” I think it different than someone who just follows rules they were told to follow.
Post reply on HN