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Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

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Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#141

Post by KaiserPro »

fatfox wrote: post #113
afavour wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know anyone at Oxford but do have friends who work in higher education. From what I hear from them Brexit has turned UK higher education upside down when it comes to funding and research. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is a consequence of some universities navigating that better than others. But you don't get anywhere near as much online outrage with that theory so "leftists are ruining western civili…

Yes I’d agree with that. International student income dropped, rounds of layoffs. Some universities are better at optimising for rankings, see also REF research funding and how much effort and resources are spent on it, which varies by university: https://2029.ref.ac.uk/about/what-is-the-ref/

Its a double whammy of EU students suddenly have to pay a lot more cash for a lot less certainty

but on the other end our political class fail to understand/sell that stopping international students means that we have to fund university education.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#142

Post by ceejayoz »

gcau wrote: post #28
ceejayoz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's letting in dumber people, worse students. Is it? Maybe a kid managing to struggle through a shitty school has to work harder than, say, Prince Charles with his private school and dedicated personal tutors.

>Maybe a kid managing to struggle through a shitty school has to work harder It sounds like you think admissions should be based on how hard people think they worked relative to others.

It means I think admissions officers sometimes know there’s more to a human than their raw test scores. They likely also know that a decent result at some schools requires more work than a great result at others.

I’ve met smart people who do poorly on exams. I’ve met dumb people who do well on them.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#143

Post by noelwelsh »

patanegra wrote: post #71
ceejayoz wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's letting in dumber people, worse students. Is it? Maybe a kid managing to struggle through a shitty school has to work harder than, say, Prince Charles with his private school and dedicated personal tutors.

It's always the same argument. If you are world-class talent (someone who gets to Oxford), you should be capable of similar results as kids from independent schools. Like Joe Seddon did ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Seddon - growing up with a single parent mom, working as a therapist in NHS). It isn't fair to ask ones to have 4A* and others to have just 3As. Only 1 in 2600 gets 4 A . And 1 in 83 gets 3 As. Maki…

> In total, almost half (49.4 per cent) of A-level entries at independent schools this year were awarded A or A*, compared with less than a quarter (22.3 per cent) at comprehensives.

https://www.schoolmanagementplus.com/exams-qualifications/a-...

Much more on the disparity if one cares to search.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#144

Post by madaxe_again »

foven wrote: post #48
patanegra wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is extremely unfair framing. Oxford University has been discriminating people from independent schools for a while now. To get in, you need 4 A* from an independent schools, or just 3 As from state schools. That's not "letting in poor people" as you framed it. It's letting in dumber people, worse students. Lots of that is mainly based on classism (against people from middle class), racism (against white people).…

The kids at private schools are specifically primed for every part of the application process, including the interview and interview questions in a way that state schools simply cannot. It does not matter how smart you are if your competition is able to practice in a way you cannot.

Went to private school and gotta say I went into the whole thing entirely blind - zero priming or coaching, just a begrudging allowing me to escape the prison camp for a night to go for my interview.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#145

Post by ionwake »

I cant help myself, I have to chip in. Having lived in Oxford for about a decade my most memorable local ( and in one case international headlines) which maybe me tut and wonder what on earth they are doing were these ( feel free to look them up).

a) Banned clapping in the student union. Literally incase it offended people for being loud. This one was even mentioned on Joe Rogan.

b) About a year or so later, the SAME student union, then had to fire ALL (or was it just one) ( correct me if Im wrong) leadership in the student union, for literally seeing a student stand in the wrong section - who he himself could not see he was, and instead of you know talking to him, ordered security to take him out, in such a way that the student who was as fate had it, blind disabled, was literally dragged across the floor thrown out, and then for good measure, followed up on by having his student card revoked. ( This is actually a really bad thing to do to a student in this particular university as it immediately stops them using basically most of the resources they need to complete their education. Needless to say the whole thing was so messed up leadership was taken to court and ofcourse disbanded. I happened to be told they literally brought in an old leader, back to Oxford to try and stop the weirdness.

Before the usual offended folk turn up to try and moan, I still think the university and its people are great. I am just pointing out there were definately Monty Python type moments there over the last few years.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#146

Post by ceejayoz »

john-h-k wrote: post #43
ceejayoz wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comic in https://pjhollis123.medium.com/careful-mate-that-foreigner-w... is, as ever, very relevant.

No, I don’t think it is. There is no billionaire secretly hoarding all the top university spots. And no one is saying immigrants are taking the spots. This seems like completely unrelated political posting

> There is no billionaire secretly hoarding all the top university spots.

Do you think Trump got into Wharton on his academic prowess? Legacy admits and donor kids take spots from both middle and lower classes.

> And no one is saying immigrants are taking the spots.

Sure they are. https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/08/27/trump-administration-pro...

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#147

Post by exe34 »

rm445 wrote: post #124

I am a Durham graduate, still somewhat involved with the university via some voluntary roles, and a bit of a 'booster' in the sense that I'll sing its praises to anyone. I also have a postgrad degree from Cambridge and did a little teaching while there. So, I'm quite familiar, and while I'm happy to see Durham get some love, this is bunk. There is a gulf in undergraduate teaching between Oxbridge and the pack. The su…

> The supervision system guarantees all Oxbridge students weekly, small-group tutorials,

We had that in Physics at Manchester in the 2000s. 4 students. I'm guessing they got the idea from Oxbridge, but I don't think it's been a USP for a very long time.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#148

Post by KaiserPro »

scrlk wrote: post #96
afavour wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Middle class students, knowing they'll be discriminated against, are now applying to US schools I can't take that seriously. Middle class students in the UK would not take on the level of student debt required to study in the US, the sums of money required are vastly, vastly different between the two countries. Sounds like PG has a hobby horse he very much wants to ride no matter what the facts show.

Average student debt is £53k (~$71k USD): https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn01... Given the disparity in middle-class household incomes between the UK and the US, I suspect a majority of UK middle-class students would be eligible for some form of financial aid from US universities (assuming Oxbridge vs US equivalents with need-blind + full-need international admissions), meaning their net cost…

But the difference between UK student debt (basically a regressive time limited tax) and the US version of student debt (actual loan that will fuck you up) is key here.

I don't think its possible to have a full student loan from the UK and study abroad the whole time. (you can do a year abroad though)

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#149

Post by leoedin »

geremiiah wrote: post #57
afavour wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Middle class students, knowing they'll be discriminated against, are now applying to US schools I can't take that seriously. Middle class students in the UK would not take on the level of student debt required to study in the US, the sums of money required are vastly, vastly different between the two countries. Sounds like PG has a hobby horse he very much wants to ride no matter what the facts show.

In British English, "middle class" refers to the well off professional classes or merchant traders. In American English, if I understand correctly, everyone who works is considered middle class.

I’m not sure Paul Graham’s use of “middle class” matches the colloquial one here in the UK. The students who are not getting in to Oxbridge because of their background are broadly privately educated.

I don’t think it’s controversial to say that Oxbridge has historically admitted a lot of kids from quite a small group of high cost private schools. The fact they’re adjusting their intake to somewhat reduce that is something to be celebrated.

Unless you’re a very wealthy person with kids at an expensive private school in southern England hoping that they’ll get admitted to Oxbridge, of course.

Re: Oxford loses top 3 university ranking in the UK

#150

Post by KaiserPro »

geremiiah wrote: post #57
afavour wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Middle class students, knowing they'll be discriminated against, are now applying to US schools I can't take that seriously. Middle class students in the UK would not take on the level of student debt required to study in the US, the sums of money required are vastly, vastly different between the two countries. Sounds like PG has a hobby horse he very much wants to ride no matter what the facts show.

In British English, "middle class" refers to the well off professional classes or merchant traders. In American English, if I understand correctly, everyone who works is considered middle class.

> refers to the well off professional classes or merchant traders.

Class isn't tied to money as much as the US.

For example, I grew up poor (as in eligible for free school meals in the 90s poor) however I was one of the posher kids in the school. Class is fucking hard to explain definitively.

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