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Universities should be more than toll gates

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Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#141

Post by kelvinjps »

estimator7292 wrote: post #130
arn3n wrote: post #86

I am always astonished by the range of people who claim their college degree was useless, citing rote memorization and bad classes. I had an entirely different experience and so did most people I know. University gave me the opportunity to talk to world-class researchers during office hours, to discuss ideas with my peers and have them either validated or critiqued by experts. Sure, all the information is available o…

Did you learn about selection bias in university? Maybe you went to a good one, but there are far, far more dogshit schools than good ones. Just a few years ago my husband had all of his tuition refunded (and degree cancelled) because the school was so bad and so scammy that the government had to step in and force them to refund everyone. The reality is that higher education in the USA is a for-profit venture, and li…

Some for-profit companies build better education than schools. And I don't think it's about profit since public schools are bad too

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#142

Post by yobbo »

constantcrying wrote: post #135
yobbo wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He graduated with "some of the highest grades" in his class.

How is that at all relevant to what I am saying. The author explicitly said that it wasn't.

> Often blaming "esoteric" and "irrelevant" subjects such as linear algebra for their lack of success, while not understanding that it is a vital course for any engineer.

The author was successful in his particular environment. It was only much later he understood that the content of his education wasn't valuable in itself.

He is not blaming linear algebra, rather complaining that he was graded on memorisation rather than understanding.

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#143

Post by constantcrying »

yobbo wrote: post #142
constantcrying wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that at all relevant to what I am saying. The author explicitly said that it wasn't.

> Often blaming "esoteric" and "irrelevant" subjects such as linear algebra for their lack of success, while not understanding that it is a vital course for any engineer. The author was successful in his particular environment. It was only much later he understood that the content of his education wasn't valuable in itself. He is not blaming linear algebra, rather complaining that he was graded on memorisation rather…

And? How is that relevant at all to anything I or the author said?

His success, as the author makes explicit, has nothing to do with his university education.

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#144

Post by Shorel »

Planktonne wrote: post #65

> Absolute joy turned into anger, and anger into resentment, as I wondered how different my life might have been if I’d been taught subjects I actually cared about by professors who cared too. Then I caught myself, realizing I was being melodramatic about a decade-old grievance. This is incredibly self-indulgent. You were given opportunities you refused to engage with and are now continuing that pattern by blaming ev…

I wish I could upvote you more.

This is the problem with the current generation. They are addicted to their phones, and want fast dopamine triggers, without actually putting the hard work.

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#145

Post by yobbo »

constantcrying wrote: post #143
yobbo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Often blaming "esoteric" and "irrelevant" subjects such as linear algebra for their lack of success, while not understanding that it is a vital course for any engineer. The author was successful in his particular environment. It was only much later he understood that the content of his education wasn't valuable in itself. He is not blaming linear algebra, rather complaining that he was graded on memorisation rather…

And? How is that relevant at all to anything I or the author said? His success, as the author makes explicit, has nothing to do with his university education.

The argument you started off making was that his "lack of success" was because he didn't have the desire to learn and thus wasted the opportunity.

But - he achieved some of the highest grades, so by all accounts he was successful in his education.

Much later, he understood that the contents of his education lacked intrinsic value and the only effective value it offered him was an opened "toll gate".

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#146

Post by hiAndrewQuinn »

keiferski wrote: post #17
hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #7

Well, if you actually want to learn, there is always the vast swaths of the Internet. Virtually everything here is free, and nobody will care until you do something impressive with your knowledge. As for universities, they will likely stay as signaling mechanisms until society finds a more efficient way to signal the things that universities do. This is a worldwide pattern that has emerged, and to the extent you see…

There is definitely a lot of information on the internet, but I wouldn’t undervalue the benefits of being in a classroom with a small group of bright people focusing on the same topic every week. Probably the best class I took for my philosophy degree was a 3 hour metaphysics course, held once every Wednesday. There were maybe 6-7 people in the class, and the discussions we got into were incredibly educational. I don…

I don't think I'm undervaluing it, I think it's just low expected value in the first place. Just because you had 36-40 hours of a good experience over a 3 or 4 year degree doesn't actually mean the median or even the 90th percentile classroom experience is better than self-education.

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#147

Post by keiferski »

hiAndrewQuinn wrote: post #146
keiferski wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is definitely a lot of information on the internet, but I wouldn’t undervalue the benefits of being in a classroom with a small group of bright people focusing on the same topic every week. Probably the best class I took for my philosophy degree was a 3 hour metaphysics course, held once every Wednesday. There were maybe 6-7 people in the class, and the discussions we got into were incredibly educational. I don…

I don't think I'm undervaluing it, I think it's just low expected value in the first place. Just because you had 36-40 hours of a good experience over a 3 or 4 year degree doesn't actually mean the median or even the 90th percentile classroom experience is better than self-education.

…I had more than one good class in my four years of college. It was an example.

Self-education is great but is also leads to a kind of idiosyncratic blindness, because no one really forces themselves to study anything that they aren’t already interested in.

Re: Universities should be more than toll gates

#148

Post by JackMorgan »

orwin wrote: post #73

I know someone who started uni at 24, after 7 year of working as line cook then chef. She seems to have the opposite experience that you have. She has had a lot of support from the professors in her first year, and only wanted to reach bachelor. Then the seocnd year came, she started to really understand biology, and changed her goals from nutrition to pharmaco/biochemistry, changing her courses with the help of the…

The human brain doesn't stop maturing until 25. You can't rent a car until that age in the US.

I would have gotten much more if I'd attended university starting at 25. However, it would have set me much farther behind in my career, by 25 I was already deep into my career. That would not have happened if I'd been still in school.

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