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EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

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Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#141

Post by WinstonSmith84 »

varispeed wrote: post #6
Yokolos wrote: post #3

I can't believe with our history involving the Third Reich and the Stasi that we aren't staunchly opposed. Especially with the impending political upheaval when AfD finally gets enough votes to form a ruling government. Our politicians are insanely shortsighted and somehow don't understand the danger they're enabling.

> Third Reich and the Stasi It looks like German population actually enjoys these things. Third time lucky? edit: how would you explain lack of protests or that the authors of proposal don't face criminal investigation? After all this is authoritarian regime refresh, just without the labels.

Yes, Germany is very hypocritical, a lot of people have short memories.

On another hand, Germany is on the spotlight because it's the country which is going to decide at the end. Less critics about the usual suspects who love to restrict personal freedoms like France, Spain, Italy ..

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#142

Post by probably_wrong »

littlecranky67 wrote: post #60

Can someone please explain to me how that law will prevent anything or anybody from encrypted messaging, if I can just whip up a website and use javascript plus websockets/webrtc to implement encrypted chat? Like, yes, you can prevent the FANANG from implementing it, but criminals will just use the secure one...

I believe the concept is that I may not be able to jail you for your criminal activity but I can still jail you for breaking the encryption law.

But more generally I think one has to account for the power of the default option - with so many criminals posting their crimes on social media and/or their Venmo descriptions, the likelihood of criminals abandoning (say) WhatsApp and coding their own is rather slim.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#143

Post by amelius »

varispeed wrote: post #98
amelius wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but that wasn't my point. My point is that "this isn't about catching criminals" is the wrong wording. You don't start a debate by twisting the words of the other party. No matter how right you are. Otherwise you will be seen as a pariah.

But this isn't about catching criminals.

For _you_ it isn't.

If you want to be heard in a heated debate, choose your words wisely.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#144

Post by [deleted] »

impossiblefork wrote: post #124
patates wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't think this was even possible. Can EU laws actually override the constitutional rights of member states? I was under the impression that the principle of supremacy isn't absolute and doesn't extend to overriding a country's fundamental constitutional rights. If that's not the case, the danger isn't limited to just Germany. With authoritarian regimes gaining power everywhere, it would only take a few of them w…

No. The EU isn't a federation, there's no supremacy class. The member countries are sovereign and obviously can't go against their constitutions or basic laws.

[deleted]

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#145

Post by philipallstar »

impossiblefork wrote: post #124
patates wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't think this was even possible. Can EU laws actually override the constitutional rights of member states? I was under the impression that the principle of supremacy isn't absolute and doesn't extend to overriding a country's fundamental constitutional rights. If that's not the case, the danger isn't limited to just Germany. With authoritarian regimes gaining power everywhere, it would only take a few of them w…

No. The EU isn't a federation, there's no supremacy class. The member countries are sovereign and obviously can't go against their constitutions or basic laws.

> there's no supremacy class

What does "supremacy class" mean?

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#146

Post by Y_Y »

p0w3n3d wrote: post #111
gadders wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the EU way - "We will keep holding the vote until we get the result that we want."

It's Not Who Votes That Counts, It's Who Counts The Votes - J.Stalin

> In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes.

- Mogens Jallberg

Regarding your Stalin "quote", please see https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/stalin-vote-count-quote/ .

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#147

Post by codeptualize »

munksbeer wrote: post #126
codeptualize wrote: post #26

One interesting line in the proposal: > Detection will not apply to accounts used by the State for national security purposes, maintaining law and order or military purposes; If it's all very safe and accurate, why is this exception necessary? Doesn't this say either that it's not secure, or that there is a likely hood that there will be false positives that will be reviewed? If they have it all figured out, this exc…

> It's ridiculous that they keep trying this absolutely ridiculous plan over and over again. There is a certain group of politicians who are pushing for this very hard. In this case, the main thrust seems to be coming from Denmark, but from what I understand there are groups (eg. europol) pushing this from behind the scenes. They need the politicians to get it done.

Maybe we should scan their communications for corruption and undue influence. I'm sure it's all above board, so it should be fine if we get an independent group to review them right? (Just following to their reasoning..)

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#148

Post by Flatterer3544 »

gadders wrote: post #8
Longhanks wrote: post #4

This chat control topic is undemocratic, allegedly illegal in many jurisdictions (such as Germany), yet, keeps coming up ever and ever again, and the politicians face no consequences whatsoever. Endeavour like these make people vote for extremists, distrust the EU and democracies, or just give up on politics for good. These EU politicians endangering freedom, justice and democracy must be held accountable, with the m…

It's the EU way - "We will keep holding the vote until we get the result that we want."

While the EU foundation was laid out in a time much different to our modern times and the faults that rise with it, especially that the majority of the EU doesn't have the sway as a union should and that a single state can block all others.

But at least when it comes to Chat Control, it is not EU level, it's member states pushing for it and at least for now EU blocking it, so at least for once it is a good thing and the minority of ~8 states can still block it for the majority, block it for all 27 states..

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#149

Post by jonp888 »

moffkalast wrote: post #139
gadders wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the EU way - "We will keep holding the vote until we get the result that we want."

Yeah the Commission really needs to go, MEPs need to be able to propose laws. That's really all there is to it to fix the entire situation.

Every country in the world has a "Commission". It's no different to the UK Civil Service or the various US Federal Governments. If it didn't exist then the EU would be unable to implement any of it's policies.

Can you explain how MEP's directly proposing laws would affect this? I really don't get it. In parliamentary systems it's normal that virtually all legislation originates in the executive. In the British parliament at least, that a law is privately proposed and then becomes law is rare and normally restricted to very simple legislation on specific issues.

Re: EU Chat Control: Germany's position has been reverted to undecided

#150

Post by Lio »

amelius wrote: post #2

> This is not about catching criminals. It is mass surveillance imposed on all 450 million citizens of the European Union. I think it is also about catching criminals. And they should change their wording to make it more correct, otherwise they will certainly lose this fight.

It seems to be mostly about mass survellance. The quote I've seen from Danish Minister of Justice, Peter Hummelgaard seems to make that clear:

> We must break with the totally erroneous perception that it is everyone's civil liberty to communicate on encrypted messaging services,

https://www.ft.dk/samling/20231/almdel/REU/spm/1426/index.ht...

What they want is everyone to be watched, all of the time. Crimes will be determined later.

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