No, thank you. I've never touched Oracle products in my entire career, and that's my no. 1 directive forever.
Java 25 officially released
141–150 of 260 posts
Re: Java 25 officially released
#142No, thank you. I've never touched Oracle products in my entire career, and that's my no. 1 directive forever.
As opposed to Google, Meta, and Microsoft?
Re: Java 25 officially released
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
For us 8 to 17 was tough due to a lot of things you weren’t supposed to be using going away (sun packages). But TONS of libraries did it anyway. And the move from javax to jakarta for a lot of things in there was also tough. If you could get through that, you’re golden. From what I’ve seen going to 21 or 25 look easy. They’re just adding features, the big upheavals of doing the long needed cleanup are over. I expect…
The move from javax to jakarta was not really connected to the changes in the language. It is very much recommended to not do these upgrades simultaneously.
Right. It was a copyright issue, I know.
We didn’t do that one giant jump. We moved from 8 to 17 in one step, then in a separate step upgraded Tomcat requiring the jakarta changes later.
I guess I tend to think of them as one “modernizing“ combo even though they’re not.
Re: Java 25 officially released
#144recently pulled the trigger on a migration out of jdk8 we decided to bite the bullet and do 21 instead of 17; one of the reasons being 25 being just around the corner. as far as i can tell, the biggest hurdle is 8 to 11 (with the new modules system); but it's smooth sailing from there. the proof-of-concept was done with jdk17, but it worked as-is with jdk21 (except guice which needed a major version bump). (of course…
For what it's worth, I had absolutely no hurdles migrating from 17 to 21 recently. Everything worked fine, the only minor issues were in upgrading Gradle at the same time (which was only tangential)
Re: Java 25 officially released
#145(not a Java developer, no dog in this fight) I'm not sure I like the module import system very much. I think `import *`-like constructions make code a bit easier to write, but much harder to read, especially for developers new to the language / codebase. C# and Nim love that style, and it makes them almost unreadable without a good IDE. Personally, I much prefer Python's "short aliases" style, e.g. `import torch.nn.f…
I have never understood complaints about language constructs that don't make sense without an IDE. You have an IDE, it is where you are viewing the code. People that don't have an IDE are causing their own problems and should stop. People viewing the code on GitHub are not really analyzing it at the level that requires finely tracing through references usually and the terseness drastically outweighs the occasional an…
> You have an IDE
No, I don't.
For some reason there exists a group of programmers that refuse to acknowledge use cases like "let me write a small program in nano over SSH" or "let me change one hardcoded variable and recompile the project and never touch its source code again". If your code is unreadable without IDE, it means that either IDE should be shipped with the compiler because it's an essential part of the language, or the language is garbage because its designers literally admit "we're too stupid to figure out how to solve this issue, hope that IDE does something smart because we can't".
Re: Java 25 officially released
#146More new programs should be written in Java/on the JVM. Most of the reasons Java dropped out of popularity no longer apply, and at this point it is an incredibly stable and mature ecosystem. I can come back to a Clojure program I wrote ten years ago and it runs great , meanwhile a TypeScript program I write 6 months ago requires a bunch of updating and cleanup.
Oracle makes me too uneasy. Can I use Java without the worry of incurring Oracle's wrath? Maybe, if I make sure I use openjdk/jump through some hoops I'll be fine. Or, I could just use any other language and not have that worry looming over me. C# is right there if I want a java-like experience without the anxiety of Oracle breaking my kneecaps. I don't know how to use java and not violate one of Oracle's EULAs. I co…
> Oracle makes me too uneasy. Can I use Java without the worry of incurring Oracle's wrath?
Hey! I work at Microsoft and helped us launch the Microsoft Build of OpenJDK.
I can categorically say that yes you can use Java without worrying. As long as you don't use a commercial binary from a vendor that has certain licensing restrictions.
Our build of OpenJDK is free for any use, and comes with commercial support (you know, the one you can open a ticket and ask us to look into the issue) at no extra cost for workloads on Azure.
Re: Java 25 officially released
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just use OpenJDK (only downside is you have to upgrade every half year) or a distribution of another vendor (most people use Eclipse, or Red Hat if they already are Red Hats customers). It's really not as difficult as it is made out to be. If you use Oracle's distribution of the JDK then you are an enterprise customer and should have the resources to deal with their license terms.
"Am I using the correct language runtime distribution (or version thereof) so I don't get into legal trouble?" Is a question none of Java's competitors have to ask. Even using OpenJDK is a sword of damocles waiting to fall. If I forget to update OpenJDK, Oracle could come after me. It's just risk that I don't have to worry about by choosing not to go with Java. It's probably not a lot of risk, but it's risk nonethele…
> "Am I using the correct language runtime distribution (or version thereof) so I don't get into legal trouble?" Is a question none of Java's competitors have to ask.
I am not sure this is 100% true. I think that if you download a specific binary of Anaconda (for Python), you may get into a situation where you have to pay.
For example, at Anaconda.com, one can download their distribution (their build) but the fine print says: "Use of Anaconda’s offerings at an organization of more than 200 employees/contractors requires a paid business license unless your organization is eligible for discounted or free use."
I think that PSF License is permissive and allows binary versions of Python without the maker having to release the source code.
So, downloading Anaconda as a Python distribution (build) is analogous to downloading Oracle JDK (a commercial build of OpenJDK, from Oracle).
Re: Java 25 officially released
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oracle makes me too uneasy. Can I use Java without the worry of incurring Oracle's wrath? Maybe, if I make sure I use openjdk/jump through some hoops I'll be fine. Or, I could just use any other language and not have that worry looming over me. C# is right there if I want a java-like experience without the anxiety of Oracle breaking my kneecaps. I don't know how to use java and not violate one of Oracle's EULAs. I co…
You don't have to jump through any hoops. If you don't want to deal with Oracle, don't be an enterprise customer of Oracle and instead just get some openjdk distribution.
> just get some openjdk distribution
From several sources:
- Oracle themselves, at jdk.java.net - Microsoft, at microsoft.com/openjdk - Red Hat ... - Azul Systems ... - Amazon - Bell Soft - Canonical (Ubuntu ships OpenJDK binaries built by them) - build yourself?
Re: Java 25 officially released
#149(not a Java developer, no dog in this fight) I'm not sure I like the module import system very much. I think `import *`-like constructions make code a bit easier to write, but much harder to read, especially for developers new to the language / codebase. C# and Nim love that style, and it makes them almost unreadable without a good IDE. Personally, I much prefer Python's "short aliases" style, e.g. `import torch.nn.f…
[deleted]
Re: Java 25 officially released
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have never understood complaints about language constructs that don't make sense without an IDE. You have an IDE, it is where you are viewing the code. People that don't have an IDE are causing their own problems and should stop. People viewing the code on GitHub are not really analyzing it at the level that requires finely tracing through references usually and the terseness drastically outweighs the occasional an…
> You have an IDE No, I don't. For some reason there exists a group of programmers that refuse to acknowledge use cases like "let me write a small program in nano over SSH" or "let me change one hardcoded variable and recompile the project and never touch its source code again". If your code is unreadable without IDE, it means that either IDE should be shipped with the compiler because it's an essential part of the l…
If you would stop complaining if the IDE shipped with the compiler, then just install them at the same time and consider it "shipped with". Splitting them is for convenience and choice, not because the designers are stupid. You can handle installing two things.
(And since we're on the subject of Java, let's not forget how they used to split up JRE and JDK downloads in a very similar way.)
Having the IDE ready to go takes care of the use case of changing one variable, but you didn't need the IDE in the first place. That one's fine either way.
For the use case of making a whole new program in nano, I acknowledge and reject it. You'll be fine. Use cases that exist only out of stubbornness don't need to be catered to. You have the IDE one click away.