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Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

cleantechnica.com

141–150 of 190 posts

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#141
post #25
post #4

It doesn't list the advantages over water, which seems the most common in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_energy_storage systems. You'd think water would be easier to exchange heat with since it can slosh around the heat exchanger elements in the tank more easily. Which should translate to lower costs since you don't need as many exchanger structures in the medium. Any guesses for the motivation in using sand?…

District heating tends to operate at 50-70C at lowest. But more often up to 115C and in some case even 180C. Even the lower range doesn't leave much delta in best case of boiling water. So you would need some type of heat pumps instead much simpler heat exchangers. So that is also one cost optimization.

I think it's more like 90C in (winter), 40C out. The temps have been going down in newer infrastructure as it's more energy efficient. See eg https://www.shcbysweden.se/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Best-P... p. 7

And of course it's still a win if you can heat the return water half of the way to spec with the battery, it's not necessary to have the battery heat it all the way to the plant outgoing temp.

District heating systems have been happily using ~90C water based heat batteries for a long time.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does MAGA have to do with Finland?

Unfortunately, people seem to see Boogeymen everywhere when they're terminally online. It's kind of like the mid-2010s where everything someone didn't like was "fascist" or "Nazi"

Populist strongmen are rising everywhere; this is a fact. The People have short memories and seemingly have forgotten those who rose to power in the first half of the 20th Century and whom the Americans fought against for the remainder of it.

Apparently now it's time for the world to return to populist authoritarianism and isolationist policy in order to bury our heads in the...sand...until we have to collectively rise against them again. Except, this time, it may be America who bears the brutal brunt.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#143
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

District heating tends to operate at 50-70C at lowest. But more often up to 115C and in some case even 180C. Even the lower range doesn't leave much delta in best case of boiling water. So you would need some type of heat pumps instead much simpler heat exchangers. So that is also one cost optimization.

I think it's more like 90C in (winter), 40C out. The temps have been going down in newer infrastructure as it's more energy efficient. See eg https://www.shcbysweden.se/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Best-P... p. 7 And of course it's still a win if you can heat the return water half of the way to spec with the battery, it's not necessary to have the battery heat it all the way to the plant outgoing temp. District heating…

Other limitation that I know is that for tap water minimum is 55C. So the last building in loop should get at least that much. So 40C is only acceptable back at power plant.

In the end it comes to balance with cost, simplicity, capacity and such. Heat pumps do allow extracting heat from colder storage medium. But on other hand electric heating elements and heat exchangers are very much simpler and cheaper.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#144
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is amazing how internet commenters can see some data that appears insane and build an entire post around it. Instead of like, consider, that they have completely misunderstood the data. Confirmation bias much. Eg that graph is not Finnish electricity usage. It's ALL energy, including cars and planes that still use oil...

Yeah I was wrong and completely misunderstood the data. I'd edit the post if I could but the timeout for that happened while I was editing. Not sure what confirmation bias I might have: I figured the Fins did their math correctly and was confused about why they were using electric heat. Anyway, to explain my mistake, the data did not look "insane" to me, it's about right for most countries, and even if it had been co…

Cheers! For the record 25% of electricity from oil is "insane" for any place that isn't a small island or failing 3rd world country.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#145
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why too good to be true? There are significant trade-offs with this technology. It's storing heat, so if you need electricity then you eat a lot of efficiency. I think Vernon said ~45% round trip efficiency. Batteries are 90%+. The storage is at a high temperature (500-600C) which means that you can't use heat-pumps to produce the heat to be stored. This means that you miss out on ~400% energy gains possible from con…

The whole point is that the thermal energy is used directly, via district heating. These are not meant to store energy for electricity production (though they could do that if really needed – emergency power for various facilities? Maybe not worth it compared to diesel.) Heat from existing thermal power plants can be stored directly and later distributed with no conversion loss; excess electricity from renewables can…

The link in the OP comment is however talking about electricity generation (not excluding heat use tho) and energy being stored from excess PV.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#146

This is super cool but the ending is bizarre. > A comment on the YouTube video below complained, “Not a word about return on investment in the presentation. That means it’ll never pay off” MAGAlomaniacs are everywhere these days. Given the supposed 50+ year lifespan of such a battery, I find it hard to believe it doesn't turn a profit at some point. And I understand that debunking low-effort accusations is asymmetric…

I find it fascinating that renewables always have to have a ROI.

nobody cares about his car loosing value as soon as you drive off the parking lot. Or any other appliance - a fridge will never have a ROI, a washing machine will not and neither will a stove, a macbook or a fancy smart home system. They are part of our live, loose value and we accept that.

But solar or batteries (granted, mostly with home-solutions)? Better make money, otherwise why even bother.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#147

This is super cool but the ending is bizarre. > A comment on the YouTube video below complained, “Not a word about return on investment in the presentation. That means it’ll never pay off” MAGAlomaniacs are everywhere these days. Given the supposed 50+ year lifespan of such a battery, I find it hard to believe it doesn't turn a profit at some point. And I understand that debunking low-effort accusations is asymmetric…

I find it fascinating that renewables always have to have a ROI. nobody cares about his car loosing value as soon as you drive off the parking lot. Or any other appliance - a fridge will never have a ROI, a washing machine will not and neither will a stove, a macbook or a fancy smart home system. They are part of our live, loose value and we accept that. But solar or batteries (granted, mostly with home-solutions)? B…

ROI is implicitly against the alternative or status quo:

- Fridge: has ROI vs. going to the store more often or getting food poisoning.

- Washing machine: Has ROI measured in the value of your time spent not slapping clothes against a board to make them clean.

- Stove: ROI vs. using and maintaining a fire pit, with the risk of burning your house down factored in.

- MacBook: ROI is how much work you can get done vs. a Windows machine, or not having a laptop and doing math really fast by hand on paper.

Etc. It is suspicious that there isn’t a “this will pay for itself in N years vs. not having it” statement somewhere.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

W and J are the SI units for power and energy. Those units make the most sense to use in Europe, regardless of the type of energy. Wh is an abomination that has come about because professionals think consumer brains would expose if they ever saw the unit watt-seconds (J). No consumer had any preconceived notion of either Wh or J, so had we used J from the start, it wouldn't have been a problem... (Yes, same with Ah v…

I dunno, 1kWh seems quite natural as a unit of building-scale energy usage when you know a kettle or space heater is about 3kW. We think about energy usage much more in terms of kW and hours than in watts and seconds. And even in small devices like an LED bulb, 5W is more obviously 0.005kW than, say, 2 hours is 7200 seconds. And in this context it's much more obvious that it can notionally deliver energy at a peak ra…

Absolutely agree.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#149
post #109
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Majority of people and countries in the world do not deem ROI to be the sole or even primary driver for investment I think this is a little unfair. If it were true, it would be the reason for wealth inequality: you're saying that the majority of people and countries are so financially irresponsible that they consume any resources they get without investing any. But in fact everyone I have observed closely, in every…

> There are 10% opportunities in most people's lives Average S&P total return (reinvesting dividends) is well over 10% over any appreciable timeframe (say 30 years), even during really low times (say buying at the peaks in 1999 or 1972)

That's cherry-picking a single country's stock market with the benefit of hindsight, though. Over the time frame you're talking about, that country became the world's sole superpower and also underwent an unprecedented redistribution of income from workers to investors. Neither of those things can happen again in the US, they aren't very likely to happen anywhere else, and if you had invested at those points in time, you wouldn't have known they were going to happen. If investors had known they were going to happen, they would have bid the price up higher earlier on.

And of course it isn't a risk-free return.

Consider what happened to investors in Germany, Hungary, or Romania in the 01930s, or South Vietnam in the 01960s, or Afghanistan in the 01970s, or Iraq in the 01990s.

You might think this is irrelevant because you don't live in 01930s Germany or 01970s Afghanistan or 01990s Iraq; you live in the USA.

But, if you live in the USA, you don't live in the USA of the 01970s or the 01930s. You live in the USA of 02025. In 02025, the country most like 01930s USA or 01970s USA is China, which is obvious if you read books from the USA from those periods. The USA in 02025 is the country that's been trying and failing to build high-speed rail for 60 years, since Japan got it working, and just elected a xenophobic demagogue who praises dictatorship; it's much more like 01980s Russia or 01930s Italy.

Warren Buffett said that, in the long run, you can't expect the stock market to return more than the long-run economic growth rate, which you can't expect to consistently be more than 3%. I don't understand the logic behind either of these propositions, but I suspect Buffett knows more about market returns than I do.

— ⁂ —

By contrast, if you can get an 0.8% discount on the potatoes your family eats by bulk-buying enough potatoes for the next three months, that's about a 10% annual return on investment, and the risk is pretty low—and almost entirely under your control. And, in practice, you can often get a much bigger discount than that, especially if you assign some cost to the errand of going potato shopping. You just have to make sure you have proper potato storage and that you don't have a sudden dropoff in family potato consumption.

How do I figure that ROI? Well, the amount of extra money you have tied up in potatoes oscillates between two months' worth and zero, with an average of one month of potatoes. But your expenditures on potatoes are 0.8% less each month, which is your earnings from that investment. Every year, you save 10% of a month of potatoes: 10% of your investment. Tax-free.

If you learn to calculate ROIs and reorganize your household expenses on the basis of ROIs, whatever income you have will go dramatically further than it would for someone who hasn't done that.

Re: Finnish City Inaugurates 1 MW/100 MWh Sand Battery

#150
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly not the only country. Iceland is even more extreme in this regard and unlike Finland it is powered by 100% renewables, hydro and geothermal energy. In Finland the only good renewable alternative is wood/biomass.

Seems reasonable. I'll have to dig up my source to double check. Maybe they just didn't have Iceland data in their set? It's certainly a surprising result to see other non-sunny places like the UK, Germany, Norway & Sweden have solar as their cheapest energy source.

It's hard to get really solid estimates for solar costs because they've been dropping so precipitously, and because they depend on so many ancillary factors: wiring, inspections, permitting, power electronics, storage, and so on. Getting solid estimates for solar return on investment is even harder, because it depends on the future price of energy.
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