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How does the US use water?

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Re: How does the US use water?

#141

Post by renewiltord »

The whole debate is retarded and only real because we try to shut down our power plants so we can’t have large scale desalination. When I was younger I hoped that all these degrowthers would just age out. But it turns out young people keep filling in the ranks.

The interesting thing is watching as they all complain about the consequences of stifling growth without realizing that’s what’s happening.

“I don’t want any more housing here. It’s too expensive”

Totally retarded but fortunately I’ve figured out my way around this stuff.

Re: How does the US use water?

#142

Post by close04 »

FredPret wrote: post #78
Manuel_D wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying fossil fuels don't actually pollute or emit greenhouse cases, because we're just X joules away from sequestering it back from the atmosphere. Desalination, and pumping water over thousands of miles is extremely expensive. Sure, you're not wrong, but the values of X and Y are uneconomical.

I don't think they're uneconomical. Fresh, clean water is astonishingly cheap; of course people are using it to grow almonds and alfalfa in the desert. Just charge people what the water is worth and they'll stop, or water companies will be able to afford much more treatment capacity. You have a point about sequestering CO2 molecules, but: a) I'm sure this will get cheaper over time, just like every other technology b…

> Fresh, clean water is astonishingly cheap

Because you can find it in "concentrated" form (think entropy), all in an aquifer or a river, and these are everywhere. But these dry up because of our usage and the climate, and when they do you still have the same amount of water on the planet, it's just not as easily accessible. It's super spread out, it's too far away, it needs a lot of expensive processing to make usable, or all of the above.

What's cheaper and easier for you, to condense a cup of water from the air or to just turn on the faucet?

> we should be using solar and nuclear for everything

Why solar? Energy is not lost/consumed in the universe, so why not collect it from anywhere else. Energy is astonishingly cheap, that's why we use so much of it. If you know what I mean...

Re: How does the US use water?

#143

Post by lynguist »

hammock wrote: post #42
recallingmemory wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, 1.6 trillion gallons of water from the Colorado river goes into irrigation for alfalfa[1]. Google's total water consumption across all data centers in 2023 was 6.4 billion gallons[2]. People are sounding the alarm about water usage in AI data centers while ignoring the real unsustainable industries like animal agriculture. 1: https://coloradosun.com/2024/04/04/research-colorado-river-w... 2: https://www.datacent…

And most of that alfalfa is owned by a Saudi conglomerate that then exports it to the other side of the planet to feed its dairy cattle

You pay for fuel for your car => Saudi monarchy gets it share because they supply it => while they completely waste 20% for “supercars” and vanity, they still have enough money to do whatever they want including => they grow alfalfa next to you to feed their local cattle

Re: How does the US use water?

#144

Post by hennell »

recallingmemory wrote: post #32
Aurornis wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a great example of using large numbers without context to scare people. Say “6.4 billion gallons” in isolation and people will be horrified. Put it in context relative to something like alfalfa farming and it doesn’t even appear on the same scale.

Absolutely, not to mention the difficulty people have in grasping the difference between a billion and a trillion.

I've remembered the fact that a million seconds is ~11 days and a billion seconds is ~32 years since I was a kid. Still feels pretty ridiculous as an adult, no-one who didn't know it has even guessed close (and some who try to work it out were way off).

I just had to google what a trillion is in years, and the answer made me realise I don't instinctively understand the relationship between a billion and a trillion either!

Re: How does the US use water?

#145

Post by BurningFrog »

recallingmemory wrote: post #32
Aurornis wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a great example of using large numbers without context to scare people. Say “6.4 billion gallons” in isolation and people will be horrified. Put it in context relative to something like alfalfa farming and it doesn’t even appear on the same scale.

Absolutely, not to mention the difficulty people have in grasping the difference between a billion and a trillion.

Always use the same unit in comparisons.

Instead of "1.6 trillion vs 6.4 billion" write "1600 billion vs 6.4 billion"!

Re: How does the US use water?

#146

Post by jeltz »

datatrashfire wrote: post #125
adrr wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biggest alarmist is movement against Nestle using water for bottled water in California. They don’t even use as much as an average golf course. How much water is wasted on golf courses in these arid regions? Or growing water intensive crops like alfalfa that isn’t even directly used to feed people.

Why is water used for golf a waste vs other uses?

From an utilitarian point of view golf courses use a lot of water per person playing.

Re: How does the US use water?

#147

Post by pfdietz »

Aurornis wrote: post #30
recallingmemory wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, 1.6 trillion gallons of water from the Colorado river goes into irrigation for alfalfa[1]. Google's total water consumption across all data centers in 2023 was 6.4 billion gallons[2]. People are sounding the alarm about water usage in AI data centers while ignoring the real unsustainable industries like animal agriculture. 1: https://coloradosun.com/2024/04/04/research-colorado-river-w... 2: https://www.datacent…

It’s a great example of using large numbers without context to scare people. Say “6.4 billion gallons” in isolation and people will be horrified. Put it in context relative to something like alfalfa farming and it doesn’t even appear on the same scale.

I understand it takes a gallon of water to grow one almond in California.

Re: How does the US use water?

#148

Post by pfdietz »

dyauspitr wrote: post #121
recallingmemory wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, 1.6 trillion gallons of water from the Colorado river goes into irrigation for alfalfa[1]. Google's total water consumption across all data centers in 2023 was 6.4 billion gallons[2]. People are sounding the alarm about water usage in AI data centers while ignoring the real unsustainable industries like animal agriculture. 1: https://coloradosun.com/2024/04/04/research-colorado-river-w... 2: https://www.datacent…

Solar powered desalination seems like a no brainer in places like California.

Vastly cheaper to just have an efficient water market. But the current system makes farmer either use their water allocations for agriculture or not have that water at all.

Re: How does the US use water?

#149

Post by pfdietz »

sellmesoap wrote: post #24
adrr wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biggest alarmist is movement against Nestle using water for bottled water in California. They don’t even use as much as an average golf course. How much water is wasted on golf courses in these arid regions? Or growing water intensive crops like alfalfa that isn’t even directly used to feed people.

There are a lot of historical reasons for people to be angry at Nestle, aside from their impact on water.

It's become a meme, or a badge to display your tribal affiliation, to be mad at Nestle. Monsanto is another example of this phenomenon.

Re: How does the US use water?

#150

Post by pfdietz »

gpm wrote: post #98
rawgabbit wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was mentally referring to this article. It mentioned that natural gas plants only used one tenth that of coal. I assumed this is because natural gas plants are newer etc. https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=50698 Natural gas-fired generation uses a more energy-efficient technology to produce electricity than coal and has a lower water withdrawal intensity than coal. Natural gas combined-cycle generation…

Yeah, that's the gas turbine thing. The first-stage (which generates the majority of the power) isn't boiling water, but extracting energy directly from pressure from burning the gas in a jet-engine like fashion. The coal/nuclear like natural gas is what is labelled as "Steam Turbine" in the chart in this article: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=61444 Looks like it's already a small minority.

Coal and natural gas also emit some of their waste heat in the outgoing exhaust gases. Nuclear doesn't have exhaust gases (aside from evaporated cooling water) to carry away waste heat.

The big difference is the much lower thermal efficiency of LWR power plants.

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