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Why you can’t grow cool-climate plants in hot climates

crimepaysbutbotanydoesnt.com

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Re: Why you can’t grow cool-climate plants in hot climates

#141

Post by lazide »

oceanplexian wrote: post #78
anon84873628 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Warm eras are correlated with the golden ages of civilizations Yeah, and hot eras kill civilizations. There's a famous one called the 4.2 kiloyear event. Does modern mesopotamia seem like a great place for the birthplace of agriculture? I don't necessarily agree with the parent's politics, but you seem to be completely ignoring the categorical difference of CO2 emissions and associated risks of climate tipping point…

> Does modern mesopotamia seem like a great place for the birthplace of agriculture? Actually yes, if not for the massive cultural and political dysfunction. Modern Day Mesopotamia would be one of the most agriculturally productive regions in the world if managed. Like the California Central Valley and Central Arizona which share similar climate classifications and are the most productive regions (per Acre) on the pl…

Notably, the California Central Valley is mostly as productive as it is because of fossil aquifers that are starting to reach nearly completely depleted states. The California Aquaduct would still allow some of it, but not nearly to the extent it has. Much of the remaining fossil water is having quality issues (excessive arsenic, salt, etc.).

Arizona is not that far off [https://www.kjzz.org/2023-12-11/content-1865370-groundwater-...].

There is a very real chance both locations will end up ‘reverting to the mean’ in the next 100 years due to lack of sustainable water supplies, which I uh expect to cause significant cultural and political dysfunction, as river driven water supplies are highly variable and don’t have the stabilizing effect that underground aquifers have.

I’m less familiar with Arizona, but in California a big issue with the fossil aquifers is that when drawn down too much, they collapse, and will never be able to be rehydrated. At least not with currently known technology. ~ 28 feet of subsidence so far. [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Valley_land_subsiden...].

Modern Day Mesopotamia (at least Iraq) has similar issues - [https://www.nrc.no/news/2024/november/iraq-drought-slashes-s...]. The most stable areas politically (Kurdistan, Baghdad) is also the only area with reliably reachable not-super-deep aquifers (Figure 27 ish), and also not problems with overly saline low quality sub-surface water (see figure 37ish) [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338393628_Groundwat...].

The north and northeast is the only part of Iraq with subsurface water suitable for normal domestic use without being treated.

Re: Why you can’t grow cool-climate plants in hot climates

#142

Post by lazide »

squigz wrote: post #103
griffzhowl wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cutting back on what we're doing already wouldn't draw a lot of grant support. We can make a presentation showing "Look, if we just ate in-season locally-grown vegetables and wore clothes made from the fibres of our locally grown nettles and wool we could solve the climate crisis in maybe 100 years!"... It doesn't seem to be economically compelling for people in the UK or US who are getting tomatoes in Januar…

> We can make a presentation showing "Look, if we just ate in-season locally-grown vegetables and wore clothes made from the fibres of our locally grown nettles and wool we could solve the climate crisis in maybe 100 years!"... With respect, this doesn't seem to me a very fair assessment of the cause - the average person is not to blame, greedy, amoral corporations and spineless politicians are - nor the solutions. A…

The average person buys their products (companies) and votes for them (politicians).

Blame isn’t even really the thing. It’s just inevitable consequences.

Re: Why you can’t grow cool-climate plants in hot climates

#143

Post by lazide »

lumost wrote: post #130
tfourb wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CO2 emissions are not the driving force behind economic development. Energy is. And energy generation has been decoupled from CO2 emissions in almost every major economy, including China. Heck, in many countries economic growth has been decoupled even from energy use, with economies growing while energy use shrinks. And while technological innovation is always nice, we always possess all the technology we need to get…

While earnest, I’ve heard this claim for 30 years - that it’s simple political will. The reality is that until very recently there were only two economically viable carbon neutral energy sources. We now have four, however there are real unsolved problems with scaling three of those solutions. The only technology which can reliably solve the crises brings along its own set of externalities. It does few favors to anyon…

In many (very real) ways, it’s like saying ‘people are fat because they lack the willpower to control their eating’.

Which, while generally true, isn’t going to solve the obesity problem anytime soon. Which I think is what you’re getting at.

Re: Why you can’t grow cool-climate plants in hot climates

#144

Post by azepoi »

fifilura wrote: post #95

In southern Sweden the vast spruce forests are starting to die because of the spruce bark beetle. You can see it everywhere now. Supposedly due to warmer summers. And new planatation replace spruce by larch or leaf trees. Luckily they don't seem to affect pine trees, but they have their own climate expectations.

Pine tree suffer from other parasites and notably sphaeropsis fungus

Re: Why you can’t grow cool-climate plants in hot climates

#145

Post by Ccecil »

randycupertino wrote: post #70
ASinclair wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He also has a YouTube channel. I first saw him speak at SF Nerd Nite which is a speaker series in San Francisco. He’s very entertaining and basically a self taught botanist.

His youtube channel is great! I love his Bay Area hikes and plant explanations. There's a nice article about him, he is a full-time train engineer who drives train shipments all around the west coast and while he was traveling he got curious about all the plants he would see from the train so he started going to the libraries on his breaks from work to learn about plants. https://www.outsideonline.com/culture/books-m…

I second the Youtube channel suggestion. Very entertaining and informative. Lots of trash talking and banter to keep things interesting. The SF tours are especially great. Explanations of why things should/should not be planted in areas really opened my eyes to how bad the urban designs can be.

Sidenote: I like that he tattooed his finger with measurement lines so he can use his fingers in the pictures as reference for size.

Re: Why you can’t grow cool-climate plants in hot climates

#146

Post by TimorousBestie »

lazide wrote: post #138
bix6 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pre ag it was hard to store wealth or accumulate power so hunter gatherers may have been the most egalitarian setup in our history. Sure it’s always been a battle but they weren’t speedrunning GHG into the atmosphere.

Ghenghis Khan?

They said pre-agricultural revolution, c. 10000 BCE.

Re: Why you can’t grow cool-climate plants in hot climates

#147

Post by lazide »

TimorousBestie wrote: post #146
lazide wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ghenghis Khan?

They said pre-agricultural revolution, c. 10000 BCE.

Pre-ag is likely MUCH earlier than 10000 BCE. We have no records of it however, so we have no way to know what it was like.

Re: Why you can’t grow cool-climate plants in hot climates

#148

Post by dmwilcox »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #135
tcoff91 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carbon capture is probably the only geoengineering thing you could do that isn’t going to be massively controversial. Probably not practical though. The other options mentioned like messing with the atmosphere to make it reflect more heat into space will likely cause wars due to lack of global consensus

> cause wars due to lack of global consensus Who would attack who? Let’s say we are putting calcium carbonate into the upper arctic atmosphere to stop Greenland melt. Who attacks?

Maybe not attacks but... "Congratulations you've won 100M+ climate refugees!"

Re: Why you can’t grow cool-climate plants in hot climates

#149

Post by dr_dshiv »

lazide wrote: post #137
dr_dshiv wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cause wars due to lack of global consensus Who would attack who? Let’s say we are putting calcium carbonate into the upper arctic atmosphere to stop Greenland melt. Who attacks?

These changes (very likely) cause major changes in precipitation. So whoever all the sudden gets a drought and famine.

Aren’t we facing major changes in precipitation (due to global warming) and by preventing global warming, having fewer changes?

TBH, I don't understand anti geoengineering logic…

Re: Why you can’t grow cool-climate plants in hot climates

#150

Post by lazide »

dr_dshiv wrote: post #149
lazide wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These changes (very likely) cause major changes in precipitation. So whoever all the sudden gets a drought and famine.

Aren’t we facing major changes in precipitation (due to global warming) and by preventing global warming, having fewer changes? TBH, I don't understand anti geoengineering logic…

Sure, but those ‘just happen’. If you start intentionally changing things, that next famine (or set of floods) has your name explicitly on it.

At some point countries will just start doing it out of desperation, but folks are rightly nervous to be the first.

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