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"Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

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Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#141

Post by pjmlp »

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #113

So if in reading the two threads correctly essentially Google asked for feedback, essentially all the feedback said "no, please don't". And they said "thanks for the feedback, we're gonna do it any way!"? The other suggestions ignored seemed to be "if this is about security, then fund the OSS, project. Or swap to a newer safer library, or pull it into the JS sandbox and ensure support is maintained." Which were all m…

Web is for all practical purposes ChromeOS, but then people complain about Apple not playing ball.

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#142

Post by anonymars »

maxloh wrote: post #89
meindnoch wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the HTML spec: https://chromium.googlesource.com/chromium/

An implementation with >90% market share becomes the defacto standard.

Who else is watching this who grew up watching this same movie play out with Microsoft/IE as the villain and Google as the hero? (Anyone want to make the "live long enough" quote?)

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#143

Post by arccy »

delfinom wrote: post #66
webstrand wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like they're going to ram it through anyway, no matter the existing users. There's got to be a better way to deal with spam than just locking the thread to anyone with relevant information.

WHATWG literally forced W3C to sign a deal and obey their standards. WHATWG is basically Google + Apple + Microsoft directly writing the browser standards. Fixing Microsoft's original mistake of Internet Explorer of not creating a faux committee lol.

w3c architecture astronauts have no place dictating standards that they can't implement.

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#144

Post by segmondy »

kg wrote: post #133
spankalee wrote: post #92

A few things to note: - This isn't Chrome doing this unilaterally. https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11523 shows that representatives from every browser are supportive and there have been discussions about this in standards meetings: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11146#issuecomment-275... - You can see from the WHATNOT meeting agenda that it was a Mozilla engineer who brought it up last time. - Opening a…

Former Mozilla and Google (Chrome team specifically) dev here. The way I see what you're saying is: Representatives from Chrome/Blink, Safari/Webkit, and Firefox/Gecko are all supportive of removing XSLT from the web platform, regardless of whether it's still being used. It's okay because someone from Mozilla brought it up. Out of those three projects, two are notoriously under-resourced, and one is notorious for con…

By your argument, once anything makes it in, then it can't be removed. Billions of people are going to use the web every day and it won't stop. Even the most obscure feature will end up being used by 0.1% of users. Can you name a feature that's supported by all browsers that's not being used by anyone?

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#145

Post by otterley »

spankalee wrote: post #92

A few things to note: - This isn't Chrome doing this unilaterally. https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11523 shows that representatives from every browser are supportive and there have been discussions about this in standards meetings: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11146#issuecomment-275... - You can see from the WHATNOT meeting agenda that it was a Mozilla engineer who brought it up last time. - Opening a…

Also, according to Chrome's telemetry, very, very few websites are using it in practice. It's not like the proposal is threatening to make some significant portion of the web inaccessible. At least we can see the data underlying the proposal here.

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#147

Post by pstuart »

raverbashing wrote: post #108
coldpie wrote: post #26

I have no opinion on this, just sharing my one-and-only XSLT story. My first job in software was as a software test development intern at a ~500 employee non-profit, in about 2008 when I was about 19 or 20 years old. Writing software to test software. One of my tasks during the 2 years I worked there was to write documentation for their XML test data format. The test data was written in XML documents, then run throug…

We can laugh at NFTs but honestly there are a lot of technical solutions that fit the "kinda works/kinda seems like a good idea" but in the end it's a house of cards with a vested interest Imagine people put energy into writing that thick of a book about XML. To be filed into the Theology section of a library

Except the only selling point for NFTs was laundering money and scamming people.

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#148

Post by lucb1e »

How do we feel about this concern in general? Not just specific to XSLTs

> my main concern is for the “long tail” of the web—there's lots of vital information only available on random university/personal websites last updated before 2005

It's a strong argument for me because I run a lot of old webpages that continue to 'just work', as well as regularly getting value out of other people's old pages. HTML and JS have always been backwards compatible so far, or at least close enough that you get away with slapping a TLS certificate onto the webserver

But I also see that we can't keep support for every old thing indefinitely. See Flash. People make emulators like Ruffle that work impressively well to play a nostalgic game or use a website on the Internet Archive whose main menu (guilty as charged) was a Flash widget. Is that the way we should go with this, emulators? Or a dedicated browser that still gets security updates, but is intended to only view old documents, the way that we see slide film material today? Or some other way?

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#149

Post by pjmlp »

maratc wrote: post #77
nicce wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why flagged? The post was reasonable.

Probably labeling a removal of a format (which is somewhat niche anyway) as "killing the open web" was a bit hyperbolic and not entirely warranted in this case. Imagine that tomorrow, Google announces plans to stop supporting HTML and move everyone to its own version of "CompuServe", delivered only via Google Fiber and accessible only with Google Chrome. What headline would you suggest for that occasion? " Google is…

No need, with exception of Safari, Web is ChromeOS already.

All the other alternatives are meaningless, including Firefox.

I am one of the few folks on my team that still uses Firefox, all our projects dropped support for it like 5 years ago.

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#150

Post by butlike »

LegionMammal978 wrote: post #95

Oh hey, that thing happened that one could easily see was going to happen [0]. The writing was on the wall for XSL as soon as the browsers tore out FTP support: their desire to minimize attack surface trumps any tendency to leave well enough alone. I wonder what the next step of removing less-popular features will be. Probably the SMIL attributes in favor of CSS for SVG animations, they've been grumbling about those…

> The writing was on the wall for XSL as soon as the browsers tore out FTP support

When did they do that? Can I not still ftp://example.com in the url bar?

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