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US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

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Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#141

Post by notahacker »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #127
notahacker wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. Everything the OP mentions as a reason to continue trading with the US is also a reason for Europe to trade more with China. Historically the argument for not doing that is "look at their very different values and how they bully and threaten their neighbours , and remember that if you do business there their government will happily crush you with its arbitrary power as soon as you step out of line and eve…

More than what? Europe trades a tremendous amount with China in the status quo. The argument you mentioned is real, but the EU never subscribed to it in the first place; they've consistently stated (e.g. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/STATEM... ) that trade with China is very important and they have no interest in decoupling, although they'd like to lower the trade deficit.

Well yes, and so does the US. But Europe has certain significant restrictions on trade with China in sensitive areas, and levies its common external tariff on Chinese imports. China would love those restrictions to be removed and to get a broad trade deal. And other countries that consider themselves broadly aligned with the West have considerably less decision-making inertia than the EU

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#142

Post by Herring »

threatofrain wrote: post #126
Herring wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at Intel's history. Concentration of power (monopoly) generally leads to corruption/abuse and stifled innovation. It's bad even for the monopolist . The second China becomes powerful enough to throw their military around like the US is when I start supporting tech transfers the other way. A more distributed power structure is much better for overall progress.

> The second China becomes powerful enough to throw their military around like the US This would be late timing.

Go look up "world's happiest countries 2025". There are lots of places that are absolutely thriving despite not having the biggest guns (and perhaps because of it).

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#143

Post by seanmcdirmid »

achempion wrote: post #135
araes wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article pretty much says it right in the opening section > investing a further $400 billion in the US alongside buying a stake in Intel seems improbable from a purely financial standpoint TSMC's entire assets are ~$200,000,000,000 [1] (cash, inventory, accounts receivable, land, buildings and equipment.) Buying 49% of Intel ... maybe. Intel's outstanding Market Cap is current ~$88,600,000,000. (4,377,000,000 outs…

Why would they buy exactly 49% and not 51% of Intel? If these extra 2% are not available, why buy 49% then and not just 2-5%?

They want to ensure that TSMC doesn't have a controlling stake.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#144

Post by seanmcdirmid »

lazyeye wrote: post #116
duxup wrote: post #2

This whole economy by corruption and coercion is not going to work out.

This is how China has been operating since forever. They don't seem to be doing too badly.

China forced 49-51 JVs. But Intel is a public company, not a JV.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#145

Post by const_cast »

tonyhart7 wrote: post #81
cmdli wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And China is becoming increasingly isolated from the rest of the Western world. I'm amazed that the US is following suit.

why you acting like this is bad thing????

Because nobody can explain why its a good thing????

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#146

Post by ModernMech »

rchaud wrote: post #131
lazyeye wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how China has been operating since forever. They don't seem to be doing too badly.

Who knew "Running America like a business" had so much in common with the Chinese Communist Party? Banning books, blocking access to websites and apps, protectionist tariffs to support local business and now forcing foreign competitors into joint ventures with failing local companies.

The through line is authoritarianism. Whether it’s Chinese communist authoritarians or American fascist authoritarians, the result is corruption.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#147

Post by seanmcdirmid »

sleepyguy wrote: post #49
CGMthrowaway wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'm kinda of shocked that chip & many tech companies play ball.. Have you heard of this story? https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2007/10/qwest-ceo-nsa-punished... The only telecom in America to resist turning on a domestic eavesdropping firehose tap for the government, was pounded to the edge of bankruptcy. Intel and TSMC are both strategically important and favored-status corporations for the going concern of the Unite…

Bernie died in prison because he didn't want to give them access to Worldcom so the story goes.

Bernie was released a month before dying. Don't ask me how I had this fact in the back of my head (I looked at Worldcom and Enron a few weeks ago for another HN story).

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#148

Post by seanmcdirmid »

phkahler wrote: post #50
throwup238 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it really matter? Does TSMC have a choice either way? They’re a globally important company but they’re not ASML and they’re stuck between two superpowers and the threat of potential total war. They’ve had the misfortune of being sucked into geopolitical maelstrom and those tides are far too strong for any company to resist.

>> Does it really matter? Does TSMC have a choice either way? Sure. Go home and make chips. Pass the tarrif costs on to customers. Would US customers have a choice?

Taiwan is too dependent on the USA ATM to make that choice. If they were to go it without the USA, the only choice would be to become an actual bonafide province of China, they aren't going to exist on their own. Almost everyone else outside of eastern Asia, however, can make a different choice.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#149

Post by ModernMech »

Alupis wrote: post #110
notahacker wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course not. But I think it's also true to say if the US hasn't been willing or able to effectively use its military power at the margin to stop a historic enemy from annexing its neighbours with impunity, your average regional power doesn't have to worry about the US using its military power to dominate world trade.

Nothing will change in the US if Ukraine falls tomorrow. People love to cry foul when the US flexes it's might... then cry foul when the US takes a back seat... literally cry foul no matter what the US does. If Ukraine is so important to the world order, why has Europe (you know, Ukraine's actual neighbors) not stepped up with their full military power? Why is Europe not threatening troops, missiles, aircraft, tanks,…

> Nothing will change in the US if Ukraine falls tomorrow.

It certainly will when Putin moves on to invading Poland or Finland. The whole point of holding the line at Ukraine is because everyone believes Putin won’t stop there.

Re: US reportedly forcing TSMC to buy 49% stake in Intel to secure tariff relief

#150

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Herring wrote: post #142
threatofrain wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The second China becomes powerful enough to throw their military around like the US This would be late timing.

Go look up "world's happiest countries 2025". There are lots of places that are absolutely thriving despite not having the biggest guns (and perhaps because of it).

China is on a path to having the biggest guns anyways (I totally expect them to pass the USA in military power in my lifetime).
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