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Terence Tao on the suspension of UCLA grants

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Re: Terence Tao on the suspension of UCLA grants

#141

Post by FirmwareBurner »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #132
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry I don't buy it. Which examples are there of academics going against the government policies and still keeping their jobs and funds? I lived in Germany and the moment you don't do what the government says you get the full shaft. Nobody let's you rebel against the government with no consequences, not in US, not in Germany, not in UK, nowhere. People painting Germany like a bastion of free speech are coping hard.…

It's hard to prove a negative. Can you show us an example of anything like what's happening at UCLA (collective punishment of an entire institution) or an example of an individual professor being harshly penalized or sanctioned for expressing personal political opinions?

Don't spin this around, what I asked you is not a negative.

People here argued that the US is fascist because in academia you can't get away with breaking governments rules getting you defunded and pointing at Germany for being superior in this regard.

So then I asked for proof that in other countries you can get away in academia with breaking the government's rules and not get defunded. It really is that simple.

Re: Terence Tao on the suspension of UCLA grants

#142

Post by ghosty141 »

tzs wrote: post #133
austhrow743 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punishing urban intellectuals for being urban intellectuals appears to be a common theme in a lot of right wing American messaging and the Republican Party won the popular vote. You can’t put this on a few. It’s the genuine desire of the American voter.

A majority of the voters voted for people other than Trump. Edit: come on people, read things in context. I was responding to someone who was implying that a majority of American voters support this. To support that assertion about any President's policies at a minimum you need that President to have received a majority of the popular vote. When third parties get enough votes that a President gets a plurality but not…

49,8% popular vote, 50,2 is a majority but at that point I would say it’s clearly half the American population that wanted him in power.

Re: Terence Tao on the suspension of UCLA grants

#143

Post by davrosthedalek »

Hnrobert42 wrote: post #135
davrosthedalek wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funding levels are lower. Salaries are lower. In physics, from the places I know in the US, about half of the faculty is foreign, and about 30% is German. This is at top universities. That wouldn't be the case if these people would find similar conditions in Europe. But it can change quickly.

Hard to argue it's lower than zero. Not to mention that low and consistent is better than moderate but at the whim of a tyrant.

Funding is always a lottery. It's not like everyone gets some, but it's less. It's more that less people get funds. So you really have to look at the average.

But you are right. That's why I said: can change quickly.

Re: Terence Tao on the suspension of UCLA grants

#144

Post by hnfong »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #118
davrosthedalek wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as you are not a "Beamte", i.e. a special case of state employee, yes.

Sorry I don't buy it. Which examples are there of academics going against the government policies and still keeping their jobs and funds? I lived in Germany and the moment you don't do what the government says you get the full shaft. Nobody let's you rebel against the government with no consequences, not in US, not in Germany, not in UK, nowhere. People painting Germany like a bastion of free speech are coping hard.…

Generally, I do agree that in most if not all places, if you get government funding, you can't go against government policy.

However, in this case, it's quite hard to argue that Terrence Tao had anything to do with antisemitism or anything against Trump's policies. Actually I don't think Terrence Tao did anything that Trump cared about. This isn't really a free speech issue, it's more like some fundamental instability in the US, and maybe the US government is running out on money and trying to cut down on research expenditure using excuses.

Re: Terence Tao on the suspension of UCLA grants

#146

Post by shakna »

roenxi wrote: post #16
exe34 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just fired the commissioner of Labour Statistics. The great thing about autocrats is that they neuter their own country pretty quickly. When you make it risky for people to give you bad news, you end up with missiles that don't work and capital ships that sink.

The US BLS does seem to have a bit of a history [0] with their job reporting though. The process they've been using appears biased to over report initially and then get revised down over time. I'm sure there are a lot of political considerations, but from a raw statistical perspective there is a pretty easy path to getting better results. They could eliminate the optimistic bias and aim for accuracy. If it were me I'…

> If it were me I'd be sacking people until they started getting a mean adjustment somewhere around 0. I doubt that is what Trump is doing, but the managers left themselves vulnerable to technical criticism.

When the jobs market is currently being impacted by a leader throwing around unprecedented tariffs, and upending decades of economic practice by throwing away national deals that he himself negotiated, you are not going to be able to accurately predict things - because they are unprecedented.

Re: Terence Tao on the suspension of UCLA grants

#147

Post by kzrdude »

fxtentacle wrote: post #76

3 months ago, we were all wondering why the EU proudly launched their "Choose EU for Science" campaign, despite having much lower funding levels than in the US. If they predicted this, then their actions would make a lot of sense. It is notoriously difficult for scientists to change careers after years in research. For people cut off from US funding like this, a EU-guaranteed middle-class income will appear much more…

It didn't need to be predicted, 3 months ago it was already clear what was happening. The list of banned words in applications, and so on, was already out by then.

Re: Terence Tao on the suspension of UCLA grants

#148

Post by rvba »

eterm wrote: post #62
exe34 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just fired the commissioner of Labour Statistics. The great thing about autocrats is that they neuter their own country pretty quickly. When you make it risky for people to give you bad news, you end up with missiles that don't work and capital ships that sink.

That may be a comforting thought, but the reality is that it takes decades for these things to have an effect, and there's no guarantee that transitioning to a low trust and high corruption society will result in the removal of the autocrat. See North Korea or Russia. People have been claiming they're on the verge of collapse for decades but the reality is that they just keep going.

It does not take decades to ruin something. In the example here: scientists can go somewhere else and never come back. Even if the next administration vhanges course you will never know if there wont be constant flip-flopping. That's bad for business, science and life. People want predictability.

Re: Terence Tao on the suspension of UCLA grants

#149

Post by [deleted] »

bboygravity wrote: post #136
fxtentacle wrote: post #76

3 months ago, we were all wondering why the EU proudly launched their "Choose EU for Science" campaign, despite having much lower funding levels than in the US. If they predicted this, then their actions would make a lot of sense. It is notoriously difficult for scientists to change careers after years in research. For people cut off from US funding like this, a EU-guaranteed middle-class income will appear much more…

Scientists please come to the EU, we can't pay you much, you won't be able to find a place to live and we don't do air conditioning, but plz come. /s

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