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Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

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Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#141

Post by nickthesick »

dtkav wrote: post #17
baxtr wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really like Notion’s information architecture (in particular the top index pages) and its multi-user capability. I tried some other tools like Confluence and Obsidian but like you say, there seems to be no match from a UX perspective. Do I love Notion? Definitely not. Would I change to another tool with the same feature set? Instantly.

If you like Obsidian and want it to be multiplayer you might be interested in Relay [0] (shameless plug). There are also plugins like make.md [1] that are focused more on making the UX feel more like notion. [0] https://relay.md [1] https://github.com/make-md/makemd

Interesting product. What do you use for the backend sync? I see CRDT so I assume Y.js?

I’m building a Y.js sync server: https://github.com/nperez0111/teleportal

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#142

Post by dtkav »

nickthesick wrote: post #141
dtkav wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you like Obsidian and want it to be multiplayer you might be interested in Relay [0] (shameless plug). There are also plugins like make.md [1] that are focused more on making the UX feel more like notion. [0] https://relay.md [1] https://github.com/make-md/makemd

Interesting product. What do you use for the backend sync? I see CRDT so I assume Y.js? I’m building a Y.js sync server: https://github.com/nperez0111/teleportal

Yeah, we use yjs and a fork of y-sweet [0]. We have a custom-built control plane that allows us to support many different types of relay server configurations (including self hosting, multi-tenant, per-relay, per-document) and optimize for cost.

Your project looks cool -- especially sub-document support -- thanks for sharing

[0] https://github.com/no-instructions/y-sweet

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#143

Post by __jonas »

bGl2YW5j wrote: post #109
__jonas wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you use Anytype productively? I have it installed but I find it kind of daunting compared to Notion for organizing my notes, it seems to want to be a more abstract kind of 'knowledge management system'. I just opened it again and it popped up a 'What's New' with phrases like 'Relations are now properties' and something about 'types', 'templates', 'sets' and 'queries', I really just want to take notes and organize…

These concepts have been copied directly from Notion. I’ve found Anytype to be more streamlined. I’m highly familiar with Notion though, so adapted easily.

Fair enough, maybe it's the way they are surfaced that makes them hard to parse to me – I may just have to give it another shot

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#144

Post by benaubin »

const_cast wrote: post #110
viraptor wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just entirely based on the "almost certainly" doing all the work. You're complaining about a hypothetical situation. > you just wouldn't be able to tell. You can setup a local web proxy and tell us. Also check the sources since it's an electron app.

I don't use notion, but it would be a fun experiment to install a root CA and see the traffic. It's probably not always this easy. I see many connections on apps using UDP, so who knows how, exactly, they are encoded. The data may also be "encrypted", similar to how Zoom "encrypted" data. That is to say, the data is encrypted, but the private key is on the same server. So, if you MITM, it looks encrypted - but there'…

it's electron so you can just open chromium dev tools and see almost all network activity - im pretty sure this is exposed to everyone in the debug menu. takes seconds. http proxy the rest. (i work at notion and do this all the time to debug)

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#145

Post by benaubin »

wferrell wrote: post #93
jitl wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To elaborate: The Notion desktop app will observe if there is a process running on your computer that is actively using your microphone, such as Zoom. Notion does not and cannot listen to the audio coming from your microphone ambiently or snoop on the signal received by another application. This detection is done purely based on the existing of a process using your microphone, not on the audio coming from the microph…

It is not genuine to say that Notion cannot listen in. Notion can listen in. Anytime it wants. Yes on Macs an indicator will be displayed - but not always prominently depending on what other apps/devices are being used (for example using continuity camera) Source: I built the same listening infrastructure into other meeting note taking apps. Our team spoke at length about this security issue with Apple.

I work at Notion. We don't ship code that would let us listen in until users explicitly click start recording. We don't want to, we aren't in the business of selling data and this would be incredibly expensive - and destroy trust. We are cash flow positive so we can sustain our values for the long term. We build useful software and get paid by our users for it. It's pretty simple. Agree that operating systems should display prominent indicators when the microphone is in use.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#146

Post by benaubin »

chinathrow wrote: post #50
jitl wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To elaborate: The Notion desktop app will observe if there is a process running on your computer that is actively using your microphone, such as Zoom. Notion does not and cannot listen to the audio coming from your microphone ambiently or snoop on the signal received by another application. This detection is done purely based on the existing of a process using your microphone, not on the audio coming from the microph…

Make it opt-in and this would be not an issue.

To be clear: recording is opt-in. We also remind users to ask for two-party consent. (obligatory "i work at notion")

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#147

Post by [deleted] »

bayindirh wrote: post #140
jitl wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don’t report your habits to any data broker. This information use used purely for local UI.

Sorry if it came through like that. I didn't mean to say Notion shares personal data to broker(s). I just wanted to highlight where it can go. Please don't forget: Road to hell is paved with good intentions. Making features which can eavesdrop on users opt-in can go very wrong, very fast. I understand the need to make it "feel like magic", but that line is very thin. Last note, please when you move something around (…

[deleted]

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#148

Post by benaubin »

mbreese wrote: post #127
jitl wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notion doesn't like making things opt-in. A feature that's opt-in will get like 1% of the use of a feature that's opt-out. A happier middle ground would be to enable by default and show a "I don't like this, pls turn it off" button the first few times. EDIT: shouldn't single out any specific role here. We think opt-out, enable-by-default makes a feature have far greater total utility. But we could do more to provide…

Get better PMs. Seriously. Users shouldn’t have to opt-out of something for privacy. Respecting privacy should be the default. If a user finds value in letting you listen to the microphone, then great! But you have to inform them! There are also other ways to get the same information — such as if the user also shares their calendar. This is sneaky and evasive behavior. But none of this conversation makes me want to u…

have any in mind? we're hiring :)

http://job-boards.greenhouse.io/notion/jobs/6345904003

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#149

Post by michaelcampbell »

jitl wrote: post #53
chinathrow wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make it opt-in and this would be not an issue.

Notion doesn't like making things opt-in. A feature that's opt-in will get like 1% of the use of a feature that's opt-out. A happier middle ground would be to enable by default and show a "I don't like this, pls turn it off" button the first few times. EDIT: shouldn't single out any specific role here. We think opt-out, enable-by-default makes a feature have far greater total utility. But we could do more to provide…

> Our PMs don't like making things opt-in.

Tell them that alone is one reason I'll never use it. I'm sure I'm a minority, but not zero.

Re: Tell HN: Notion Desktop is monitoring your audio and network

#150

Post by michaelcampbell »

mbreese wrote: post #135
jitl wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don’t report your habits to any data broker. This information use used purely for local UI.

Yet... you don't report habits to a data broker yet . It is currently used for local UI. Once you already are in the habit of evading user-privacy, it's a only a couple of down quarters before you start tracking and sending data to data brokers or someone else. This is why no one here likes this behavior.

And evidently their PM's don't like doing opt-out, so...
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