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Congress moves to reject bulk of White House's proposed NASA cuts

arstechnica.com

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Re: Congress moves to reject bulk of White House's proposed NASA cuts

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manned space flight in generally is a hugely wasteful money sink. It eats up about 50% of NASA's budget, and there's no real reason for it other than "we're putting people into space because we want to put people into space." People vigorously defend these boondoggles, then finally admit they were a huge waste years after the fact (as we've seen with the space shuttle, and as we're now starting to see with the SLS).

Putting a man on the Moon is something many view as humanity's greatest achievement, ever. Even if we ignore absolutely everything else, I think this alone makes it worth it. People need to be inspired. It's the spice of life. But if we look the future, the possibilities are even more enticing. Richard Nixon effectively cancelled human space flight after a series of Moon landings. Had he not, we could very well have…

> Perhaps we might live in a world where our grandchildren will again want to be scientists and astronauts, instead of YouTubers.

Sending a huge amount of your budget to send people into space because "people need to be inspired" leans a lot closer to YouTuber than science. You're sacrificing the scientific budget for the sake of giving people a spectacle. This comes at the cost of actual technological advancements. Look at the development costs for Falcon and Falcon Heavy, for example, or Starship, and then look at what NASA's spent on the Space Shuttle, SLS, ISS, etc.

The actual science, as I wrote in another reply, ends up being far less important than how NASA frames it (and often doesn't end up being used at all). And even in those cases, it's not at all clear that humans in space are actually needed to get the job done.

Re: Congress moves to reject bulk of White House's proposed NASA cuts

#142
post #60

Budget cuts? Want to get paid, by the US Federal Government, for pursuing science or technology? From experience, in simple terms, a word: Have the work for and the funding from the US DOD, department of defense, military, for some work they really care about. This sounds like a joke, but it's 90+% real. For years early in my career in applied math and computing, far and away the best parts, funding, technically adva…

A counterpoint: The DoD government positions have slowly been converted into contract positions with okay pay (not great), bad benefits, and bad job security. As a contractor at a DoD facility, you're also likely to be treated like a second class citizen in many ways (sorry, you can't attend this meeting/can't use this resource/need to fill out extra paperwork to do something/etc.). The government positions are fine, if you can get one, but most people probably couldn't even before the current administration. I don't think this is the best path for people interested in science and technology.

Re: Congress moves to reject bulk of White House's proposed NASA cuts

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everything is about productivity per dollar. It's also the source of a pipeline of well trained research scientists who go into cutting edge fields with good pay.

When you’re trying to lobby the tax cut caucus you talk in dollars.

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Re: Congress moves to reject bulk of White House's proposed NASA cuts

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably the OP believes the BBB is stupid too?

If that were the case, they wouldn't have contributed a narrative being used to support the fascist movement that gave us the big ugly spending bill. Sorry to anyone who was legitimately interested in actual fiscal conservatism (which includes myself), this is now just another lofty ideal Trump has burnt the credibility of in service of enriching himself. Maybe we can try again in 20 years, if we still have a country…

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Re: Congress moves to reject bulk of White House's proposed NASA cuts

#145
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just wish Congress or the Supreme Court would show any teeth whatsoever. Right now most of the firings have been happening illegally, despite all of these programs already being budgeted for and funded.

It's not about bravery. This is what Republican members of Congress want. This is what the conservatives in SCOTUS want.

I'm not sure about that. It's what they vote for, but I'm not sure it's what they want.

I think at least some of them are so fearful of being primaried that they do whatever they're told. For them, it is about bravery, or the lack thereof.

Re: Congress moves to reject bulk of White House's proposed NASA cuts

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that were the case, they wouldn't have contributed a narrative being used to support the fascist movement that gave us the big ugly spending bill. Sorry to anyone who was legitimately interested in actual fiscal conservatism (which includes myself), this is now just another lofty ideal Trump has burnt the credibility of in service of enriching himself. Maybe we can try again in 20 years, if we still have a country…

The conversation was about NASA, an agency that poured billions to Boeing and the United Alliance and was forced to accept SpaceX (way back during the Obama admin, I believe) whilst kicking and screaming.

And? The argument being made was the simplistic "cannot afford" meme, which is trotted out every time the fascists are crushing an agency, yet is conveniently ignored when the fascists spend trillions of dollars for new purposes.

If one wants to make a nuanced argument about NASA or fiscal responsibility despite the current political environment, it is perfectly possible to do so! But you need to work much harder to tease out the nuance and distance yourself from the fascists, lest your effort of espousing your lofty ideals just end up as fuel supporting them. Fascists don't respect ideals beyond power - the open hypocrisy is the point.

Re: Congress moves to reject bulk of White House's proposed NASA cuts

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different perspective... As an NSF grad student I didn't feel underpaid -- I felt extremely lucky that I got to do cutting-edge research while being paid a low but decent, livable salary. Of course, I could have made more money going into industry -- but at least we have a choice with institutions like the NSF willing to support risky projects that move humanity forward.

As someone who's friends with multiple grad students who are funded by the NSF ... this is not the opinion I've heard from them. They're all working on awesome research that could actually help people, and yet they struggle to get by.

What is a typical annual stipend? $37K? Sounds barely livable depending on the location, roommate situation, your stage in life, etc.

Re: Congress moves to reject bulk of White House's proposed NASA cuts

#148
Can someone with better search-foo than I tell me when the last time was that the US passed an actual budget? Not a continuing resolution, an actual budget. And maybe what the time before that was?

My impression is that it's happened maybe twice in the last 15 years, but I am open to correction.

This is the most basic duty of Congress, and they've been incapable of fulfilling it lately. (If you wonder why the president rules so much by executive order, it's because Congress can't or won't do its job.) So it will be interesting to see if the current Congress is more functional than recent ones.

Re: Congress moves to reject bulk of White House's proposed NASA cuts

#149
post #60

Budget cuts? Want to get paid, by the US Federal Government, for pursuing science or technology? From experience, in simple terms, a word: Have the work for and the funding from the US DOD, department of defense, military, for some work they really care about. This sounds like a joke, but it's 90+% real. For years early in my career in applied math and computing, far and away the best parts, funding, technically adva…

> From experience, in simple terms, a word: Have the work for and the funding from the US DOD, department of defense, military, for some work they really care about. Arguably, national defense research is and should be a core funding target of a federal government. This will never go away, as national defense is one of the core purposes of a government.

Moreover, in WWII we had Turing's code breaking, England's radar, the US proximity fuse, and "the bomb, the ATOMIC bomb".

Then Garwin and Tukey talked, and we got the FFT (fast Fourier transform), talked about the test ban treaty and detecting underground tests.

GPS is nice, but the first version, with the relativity considerations, was done at the JHUAPL for the US Navy missile firing submarines.

Then, as I recall, some people in the US concluded

"Never again will US science operate independently of the US military"

or that since WWII nearly all the reason for all the science funding -- Los Alamos, Oak Ridge, Lawrence-Berkeley, Stanford Linear Accelerator, Fermi, Brookhaven, Hanford, JHUAPL, NASA, along with DOE and NSF funding of academic research in the STEM fields at Berkeley, U. Chicago, Carnegie-Mellon, Harvard, Princeton, Johns Hopkins, etc. -- was intended for US leadership in the STEM fields and, thus, US national security.

Bluntly put.

Right, Simons funds a lot. And Hopkins has the Whiting School of Engineering from the widow of Whiting of Whiting-Turner Construction, etc.

Sorry about war, but I do like the science.

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