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JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

jonoalderson.com

141–150 of 171 posts

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#141
post #37

Although I agree that JS is being used incredibly irresponsibly, I also think this article is almost certainly AI-generated with minimal editing based on the way it reads, and I wish that wasn't the case because the topic deserves better than this. [Edit: Although I recognise that em dashes are what a lot of people use to identify AI-generated text, that isn't what I was doing here. I hadn't even been considering the…

James Mickens on learning Javascript by using the O'Reilly Definitive Guide book:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5xh0ZIEUOE

"At first I thought that this book was going to be like any other programming book; there's going to be some syntax a few examples a list of API's and so on, but as I read this book I realized it was like a Japanese game show - I was cast into this strange world that I didn't understand and I was forced to compete in these games of wit and strength that made no sense."

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#142
post #49
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hacker News however? While being completely useless on mobile, with tiny buttons and textarea, which could be fixed while barely making the whole thing larger.

Hacker news is perfect on mobile. How often do you vote? It is so content dense it’s perfect for mobile.

The reply, parent, context, and collapse buttons are almost unusably small

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#144
post #49
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hacker News however? While being completely useless on mobile, with tiny buttons and textarea, which could be fixed while barely making the whole thing larger.

Hacker news is perfect on mobile. How often do you vote? It is so content dense it’s perfect for mobile.

Have you tried Sync, the reddit client? It's basically the same kind of content and it's night and day how much more usable and readable it is. Meanwhile I have to use a Firefox extension to make HN black-on-orange.

But credit to lobster.rs, they also did an excellent job with the UI on web tech, while still being very reasonable on the css/JS side (though I can't check right now how much they serve)

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#145
There's a lot of good deep questions and challenges here. There's a lot of general anger and rage against the web, against JavaScript, but there's specific complaints that are much more real here:

> It doesn’t matter if you’re publishing a blog post or an ecommerce site – the stack is the same. Heavy, abstract, engineered to the edge of usefulness. And nobody understands it. Not fully.

That so many folks are using the same stack seems much much more likely to mean that people do understand it. Pax Reactus feels absurd but the reason it's so saturated is because it's what we know, because it's what's done elsewhere. It's done because lots of people do know it.

> And the worst part? Most of this complexity exists just to retrofit things we used to get by default: routing, metadata, caching, templating, layout.

We didn't get a lot of these by default though. We built those http services. We build template/layout engines for the server side. To a lesser extend we build routers, caches (those have been part of httpd services for a long time).

But it's still very near to me that our frameworks for SPAs (single page apps) often make us bring these concerns in each time. URL routing should be super super super common, to avoid degrading the user experience, but so often it's an afterthought. And it's not really the developers/company's fault entirely, if it's not foremost in the framework design. Its not an add-on its core to having good web architecture.

There was a defense for many years that react wasnt a framework, that it was a library. It only wanted to concern itself with rendering aspects. It left you to do a lot on your own, like state. That's both true, but it's wild how much negative space we haven't seen well integrated, how few good examples we have of a batteries included thoughtful well constructed front end.

To steer towards some kind of closing… it does feel tumultuous and chaotic. Technically we've been in transition and not making a ton of real visible progress since 2020 (react suspense is a good technique but feels obvious in retrospect, rsc is a huge slow shift), transition towards handling the SPA well.

But I'm so happy we are here. This is so different, so much more than what programming has been. HTML, CSS and JS are such an rich and capable platform, an interesting rich front end that displays anywhere on any device with secure and interesting interconnection to the world, that we can architect apps out of however we might dream. Very little seems to hold us back beyond our craft, beyond how we might imagine making these machines. So far in our lurching forward we have created such a richer connected world,… and fairly impressively direct toolkits that have shifted us from craftsmen who understood every little bit and every tool, to an industrialized workforce using advanced React Compilers. I don't love this hyper industrialization, but it's still amazing & powerful; I resist the part of me that wants to pastoralize the web, that has any sympathies for the very ardent very loud clambor against the web, that wants to see only simple pages again, that thinks it should all be torn down.

I really worry that the rage and disdain spreads so readily, on so many topics, & here where I still feel a glow of hope, even as things escalate & go unresolved, even as it feels mostly not to be honing in on really good answers (why are we still so broadly doing all work on the main thread?!). The anti-vocates pile into comments again and again, with endless energy to blast and destroy. I want to chime in to say, yes, it's complicated, but I love and cherish Dynamic HTML still, and I look forward to seeing ongoingly how we architect apps out of this base material.

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#146
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hacker News however? While being completely useless on mobile, with tiny buttons and textarea, which could be fixed while barely making the whole thing larger.

Hacker News is the only usable mobile website

Maybe that was true when we were using feature phones where you had to navigate up/down link-by-link in some awful UX.

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that getting those things right is 4x more difficult in a SPA app than a legacy, server rendered, app. - No native back and forward button implementation. Now you must listen to an API and emulate the legacy behaviour. - The concept of links, its also emulated via onClick events. This means that anything can be a link, so in many cases rows become links and their content is not really selectable as tex…

Again, none of this is down to SPA frameworks (other than back/forward history APIs, lot of people break this unfortunately, though I've never understood how they manage to as I've never had this problem on projects I worked on). What often happens also is that people embed a bunch of iframes, and history within iframes can act very weirdly. Links in Vue Router at least are just regular tags. Yes the framework handle…

Svelte 4 is the nicest framework I've ever used. It's hard for me to imagine going back to something else.

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#149
post #35

most frameworks after 2012-13 were never made to make any progress rather they kept devs in the eternal loop of new thing = better thing if simplicity makes perfection, we are currently on the other side of that

Svelte is newer and better actually

Re: JavaScript broke the web (and called it progress)

#150
post #7

Saying JS broke the web when your website loads 754kB of JS across 13 separate requests makes me wonder if you're very serious about the problem.

> This isn’t about going back to table layouts or banning JavaScript. It’s about building with intent. > It’s not about purity. It’s about outcomes. > Use what works. I think the website is fast and the majority of that JS is for the comment section+recaptcha (that's also for comments?), website works without it, I can tab through things, and the site is accessible, so I don't think that hundred KB of JS is a big "go…

So how did JavaScript break the web then?

It didn't. Badly engineered sites suck. Nothing new.

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