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Re: <Blink> and <Marquee> (2020)

#141

Post by cardanome »

echelon wrote: post #104
Timwi wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I developed web software with frames and I thought it was perfectly fine. To this day I still don't understand the issue with frames. People sometimes mention accessibility for screen readers, but nothing more specific than that, so I still don't know what the actual problem is.

We should have frozen the web from 2006 - 2010 or so. We had Ajax, lots of modern CSS, but weren't hell-bent on CSSifying and "SPA"-ing everything. Web standards hadn't yet jumped the shark. It's also before Steve Jobs murdered Flash. Killing Flash was one of the biggest mistakes we've made. The modern HTML/CSS/JS stack can't replicate how simple and functional it was. We're easily dealing with 100x the complexity no…

Oh man, the good old times when you could get a job just knowing a bit of HTML, CSS and JS. I so wish I could go back.

Now I am micromanaging a LLM that gets to do the fun parts. I have become the middle management I always hated.

Re: <Blink> and <Marquee> (2020)

#142

Post by redwall_hp »

okanat wrote: post #126
echelon wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should have frozen the web from 2006 - 2010 or so. We had Ajax, lots of modern CSS, but weren't hell-bent on CSSifying and "SPA"-ing everything. Web standards hadn't yet jumped the shark. It's also before Steve Jobs murdered Flash. Killing Flash was one of the biggest mistakes we've made. The modern HTML/CSS/JS stack can't replicate how simple and functional it was. We're easily dealing with 100x the complexity no…

Flash was a bigger privacy hole than HTML5 canvas. I think we need to mandate browsers that block those APIs on default and only enable them via permission. is often used in fingerprinting. So blocking its introspection APIs would already benefit us.

Flash was basically a remote shell with some animation tools on top. The Windows malware hell of the early 2000s, with random websites (even a banner ad on the New York Times once) doing drive-by-installs of early ransomware. (Thankfully, cryptolocker ones hadn't started yet...) And if you were a Windows escapee, the Flash experience was absolute trash on OS X and Linux.

It also became clear that the source code was borderline unmaintainable and/or Adobe lost everyone who knew or cared about it after they bought Macromedia.

Re: <Blink> and <Marquee> (2020)

#143

Post by acidburnNSA »

Ahh, good times. I ran a "college dorm floor" website off my computer for a while and included a 997-word marquee on it, just rambling and talking about girls, depression, and philosophy. At the very end there was an exclamation point that was a href to a hidden page. Of course, someone hit view source to read the stupidly long message and found the page anyway.

Re: <Blink> and <Marquee> (2020)

#146

Post by ok123456 »

Timwi wrote: post #73
donatj wrote: post #21

I was there, 3,000 years ago. I remember fights over whether or not navigation in frames was bad practice. Not iframes, frames. Who here remembers frames? I remember using HTTP 204 before AJAX to send messages to the server without reloading the page. I remember building... image maps[1]... professionally in the early 2000. I remember spending multiple days drawing the borders of States on a map of the country in Dre…

I developed web software with frames and I thought it was perfectly fine. To this day I still don't understand the issue with frames. People sometimes mention accessibility for screen readers, but nothing more specific than that, so I still don't know what the actual problem is.

It generally got a bad reputation because it was abused to keep people on portal-like and aggregator sites. These sites would parasitically add navigation banners and ads(!) to content they didn't own. You had to be somewhat web-savvy to know how to escape an annoying frame.

They also wouldn't fly these days because of CSP and general web security.

When Google Image Search first launched, it surprised people because they found a legitimate use for frames that wasn't user-hostile.

Re: <Blink> and <Marquee> (2020)

#147

Post by JimDabell »

echelon wrote: post #136
okanat wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flash was a bigger privacy hole than HTML5 canvas. I think we need to mandate browsers that block those APIs on default and only enable them via permission. is often used in fingerprinting. So blocking its introspection APIs would already benefit us.

That sounds like a big deal until you realize that nothing was private back then. Most internet traffic wasn't even over SSL. It wasn't enforced until 2018! No CORS (first standardized in 2014), no cross-site protection (first standardized in 2012). Everything was the Wild West. Flash was fine and could have adopted the same mechanisms. If Adobe (or the earlier owners) had open sourced the player and the format stand…

> No CORS (first standardized in 2014), no cross-site protection (first standardized in 2012).

This is not correct. CORS doesn’t protect anything, it removes security barriers. The same-origin policy that stops cross-site requests goes back to the 90s, it’s been in there about as long as JavaScript.

Re: <Blink> and <Marquee> (2020)

#148

Post by [deleted] »

rdrd wrote: post #84
donatj wrote: post #21

I was there, 3,000 years ago. I remember fights over whether or not navigation in frames was bad practice. Not iframes, frames. Who here remembers frames? I remember using HTTP 204 before AJAX to send messages to the server without reloading the page. I remember building... image maps[1]... professionally in the early 2000. I remember spending multiple days drawing the borders of States on a map of the country in Dre…

I remember working for a client who needed to support IE6 (with all the insane bugs/quirks/limitations) and I’d despair every time the designers would hand over a Photoshop design with rounded corners. They also needed it to be responsive (at the time mostly just different desktop sizes). Would usually require cutting the corners out and positioning them in table cells. There’s a certain amount of dev resilience you…

[deleted]

Re: <Blink> and <Marquee> (2020)

#149

Post by moralestapia »

DoctorOW wrote: post #56
moralestapia wrote: post #8

Never got the hate to these. I think some people just want to feel important by diminishing things they see others diminishing, makes up from not having thoughts of one's own. This applies to everything, not just HTML obv.

It's really simple, moving text is hard to read. As an example, turn on the local news (bear with me, I work for a TV station). You'll notice the scrolling ticker is likely simplified to focus on one headline at a time, with more pauses in between.

So, it's bad on web but good on TV?

Re: <Blink> and <Marquee> (2020)

#150

Post by moralestapia »

xnx wrote: post #80
moralestapia wrote: post #8

Never got the hate to these. I think some people just want to feel important by diminishing things they see others diminishing, makes up from not having thoughts of one's own. This applies to everything, not just HTML obv.

As others have said: scrolling text is harder to read than non-scrolling text. Scrolling text is useful in the real world when space is limited. On the web, there is no space limit, so almost no reason for scrolling text.

???

What do you mean by "on the web, there is no space limit"?

If you're talking about the interface by which we consume the content, I use a screen whose dimensions are finite. What do you use?

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