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German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

politico.eu

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Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#141

Post by bhelkey »

johnklos wrote: post #88
MortyWaves wrote: post #38

The last time I read any updates on this, everyone on both sides of the legal process were trying to single out scapegoat individual software engineers and rake them over the coals. Did something change?

I don't think software engineers were independently looking at emissions data and unilaterally decided to "fix" the emissions shortcomings in software. I think they were told by others to do that. It's good that Germany is going after the people who decided that fraud was the answer.

> It's good that Germany is going after the people who decided that fraud

When the VW scandal broke, the US indicted seven senior executives. None of these seven were extradited to the US to stand trial [1].

The VW scandal was made public in 2015 [2] and involved cheating since 2009. Sentencing only two executives to jail a decade after their wrong doing made international news does not send a strong message.

[1] https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswage...

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/business-34324772

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#142

Post by docsaintly »

OJFord wrote: post #134
ferguess_k wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

窃(Steal)钩(hook)者(people)诛(gets a death sentence) 窃(Steal)国(country)者(people)侯(gets to be the king)

Is this missing a sentence like 'there is a saying in mandarin:'?

I think they meant: 窃钩者诛，窃国者侯 qiègōuzhě zhū, qièguózhě hóu He who steals a belt buckle pays with his life; he who steals a state gets to be a feudal lord.

Yes, it is a Chinese idiom.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#143

Post by selfselfgo »

rurban wrote: post #128
lucianbr wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been some years since VW had to give up cheating on emission tests. Were they beaten by US competitors during this time? I have not read any news about it.

VW? Everyone who used the Bosch ECU cheated. VW was just the biggest who got caught and had to go to jail therefore. All the others, which were more guilty than the VW execs are still free. And the politicians which sanctioned these special diesel tests were not even named. Nor all the other countries who also choose the European Standard (not testing diesel engines) over the US Standard.

[dead]

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#144

Post by triceratops »

SoftTalker wrote: post #99
Teever wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't theft. If an employee completes all the work assigned to them and passes performance reviews then what you're describing is a suboptimal use of the employees on the part of the employer.

Real theft by employees is also extremely common. Especially in retail and food service.

And is treated as a criminal matter. But the manager telling employees to clock out before their shift ends is a civil matter.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#145

Post by throwpoaster »

squigz wrote: post #127
throwpoaster wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be conservative by taking GDP for only the middle year. In 2022 American GDP was 26 trillion (rounded down). Let's also gross up the stolen wages from your comment to 2.6 billion. That's 0.01% -- one percent of one percent. That's a background noise level, or simple error rate level, or rounding error level. And because of our conservative assumptions, over those three years GDP is actually maybe 3x higher and…

I'm sorry, but I don't quite understand your point? Does it being a small % of the GDP matter to those stolen from? Does it mean we shouldn't attempt to remedy it?

We should care about it 0.002% as much as we care about other economic problems.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#146

Post by bhelkey »

Drunk_Engineer wrote: post #116

The headline says "execs" but I don't see any Board members getting prison terms. Martin Winterkorn, the CEO, has basically escaped prosecution altogether.

The US indicted seven senior executives including Martin Winterkorn in 2017 [1]. None of these seven were extradited from Germany to the US to face trial.

[1] https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/former-ceo-volkswage...

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#147

Post by triceratops »

teruakohatu wrote: post #137
Drunk_Engineer wrote: post #116

The headline says "execs" but I don't see any Board members getting prison terms. Martin Winterkorn, the CEO, has basically escaped prosecution altogether.

It would be unlikely (not impossible) that board members would be briefed about ongoing criminal behaviour, and certainly not something so deep into operations as how the ECU is being programmed. Can a board member be reasonably responsible for the actions of tens of thousands of employees if they have not explicitly enabled or condoned criminal behaviour? The person that would benefit the most would be a senior exec…

They should at least be barred from being board members for a certain period of time.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#148

Post by triceratops »

jacknews wrote: post #19

What about major shareholders? Presumably they were blissfully unaware, and were simply pleased when VW delivered more profits, as demanded.

That's what the "limited" in "limited company" means. Blame the board members and executive management, sure. But it's hard to go beyond that.

Re: German court sends VW execs to prison over Dieselgate scandal

#149

Post by tyre »

jxjnskkzxxhx wrote: post #52
SoftTalker wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SBF is in prison, so it happens sometimes.

Usually it happens only if you steal from investors. Stealing from consumers is fine.

Matt Levine:

“I find all of this so weird because of how it elevates finance. [Various cases] imply that we are not entitled to be protected from pollution as citizens, or as humans. [Another] implies that we are not entitled to be told the truth as citizens. (Which: is true!) Rather, in each case, we are only entitled to be protected from lies as shareholders. The great harm of pollution, or of political dishonesty, is that it might lower the share prices of the companies we own.”

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