Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

aruarian.dance

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 302 posts

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#141

Post by perching_aix »

astrange wrote: post #35
tkgally wrote: post #28

Long-time Japan resident here. The IC cards do work quickly and smoothly, but the retail payment system overall is a mess because different stores accept different combinations of dozens of electronic payment brands. When shopping, I prefer to use the Suica app in my iPhone as it’s just a quick touch, but some stores won’t accept it so I have to use the Nanaco app—which requires a face recognition step—or pay in cash…

> but the retail payment system overall is a mess because different stores accept different combinations of dozens of electronic payment brands. This is a fun thing to keep in mind when people tell you Japan is a "homogenous society". (It's not high-trust either.)

When people discuss Japan being a homogeneous society, that typically refers to it being a very ethnically uniform society.

I really, really don't see how that connects to... payment systems. Surely you're not trying to claim that what people actually mean typically is that Japan is homogeneous in every arbitrary way possible, right? That's a bit too much even for a strawman, even if I factor in the kind of forum this is.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#142

Post by barnabee »

mifydev wrote: post #113

Just visiting Japan, just realised that IC cards are super fast compared to London, crazy relevant article!

They’re definitely faster, which is nice and surely preferable…

But the London Underground gates are fast enough, with enough space from the reader to the gate, that if you’re ready (and the gate isn’t congested) there’s no need to slow down even from a very brisk walk to pass through.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#143

Post by phh »

psalaun wrote: post #74
phh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With regards to latency, in Paris the biggest hurdle to increase trafic is people. You can quite literally walk through like on the Japanese video linked. But the vast majority don't. The way it's supposed to work is that if you pass your card while the gate is opened, it keeps the gate open longer. In practice most people wait for the gate to close in front of them before reopening it. I'm not sure why people do fga…

I do wait because I'm sure that my ticket is validated, and therefore won't be fined by a controller. Sometimes the machine visual/sound signal is broken, so no way to be 100% sure.

Makes sense. I've already been controlled several times after validating through a broken machine without any issue. But yeah it looks like the tide is changing and they are starting to fine for their own faults.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#144

Post by ishanjain28 »

In India, The NCMC cards for transit use the same technology. They considered allowing people to use their normal bank issued cards like the public transit in Singapore and decided against it because of potential fraud issues.

Right now, some ncmc card issuers allow validating the card using your phone so you don't have to go to the kiosk after topping up and they are working on letting people use their phones.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#145

Post by bondant »

threeseed wrote: post #133
walthamstow wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing about Japan is they have this wonderful universal IC card, but not everywhere accepts it, some accept only it, some only accept cash, some only cash or physical credit card, some only QR (PayPay), so you end up needing to carry several methods, and one of them is paper and coins!

Australia was the first country to widely support chip/pin and then tap/pay. Even here cash is coming back into vogue as costs are pushing small businesses to evade taxes. I was in Tokyo last week and it was similar businesses i.e. mostly smaller and in lower margin industries.

>Australia was the first country to widely support chip/pin

Do you have any source on that? I find it rather surprising.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#146

Post by GuB-42 »

astrange wrote: post #35
tkgally wrote: post #28

Long-time Japan resident here. The IC cards do work quickly and smoothly, but the retail payment system overall is a mess because different stores accept different combinations of dozens of electronic payment brands. When shopping, I prefer to use the Suica app in my iPhone as it’s just a quick touch, but some stores won’t accept it so I have to use the Nanaco app—which requires a face recognition step—or pay in cash…

> but the retail payment system overall is a mess because different stores accept different combinations of dozens of electronic payment brands. This is a fun thing to keep in mind when people tell you Japan is a "homogenous society". (It's not high-trust either.)

The banking system in Japan is homogeneously terrible ;)

One reason for the success of IC cards as electronic wallets is because what banks offer is so inconvenient.

But really, what works in Japan is cash. You are the odd one for paying electronically.

It is slowly changing though. You can almost go cashless now. 10 years ago, cards were mostly just for withdrawals. 20 years ago, good luck finding an ATM that accepts your card. Personal experience, in 2005, we spent half a day finding one, in Tokyo.

As for being "high trust", it is certainly not as a foreigner, trying to do business in Japan. The "high trust" part is more about petty crime being really low, so you can leave your bag unattended in a café and it will still be there when you get back, in fact, it is a common way of "reserving" a table.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#147

Post by danielhep »

lhl wrote: post #21
eloisius wrote: post #18

I think they are even more useful in Taiwan. Every single transit system across the entire island that I’ve ever encountered accepts EasyCard (悠遊卡). Even ferries. So does every convenience store, and even a lot of proper restaurants and stores. They are also fast, like you don’t even have to break your strike while passing the turnstiles to enter the metro.

I think it's about equal for utility - Japanese Suica/Pasmo cards are also usable in every single konbini, at all the stations stores, across most regional transportation and taxis, and at maybe half of Tokyo shops/restaurants (it's a default option in AirPay and other PoS systems). A lot of vending machines accept Suica, and I use it at grocery or drug stores. You can even use it at some other types of shops like Bi…

You can even use them at international chains like Starbucks, IKEA, and McDonalds.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#148

Post by kirici »

I've recently returned from a trip across the country and liked everything about my (physical) ICOCA card, except that the machines used to charge it, at least the ones I've found, only accepted cash.

After charging it once with a decent balance though, I got away (almost) entirely without cash using it in combination with a virtual credit card via NFC, save for street food carts and Gachapon machines.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#149

Post by starttoaster »

socalgal2 wrote: post #71
walthamstow wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The funny thing about Japan is they have this wonderful universal IC card, but not everywhere accepts it, some accept only it, some only accept cash, some only cash or physical credit card, some only QR (PayPay), so you end up needing to carry several methods, and one of them is paper and coins!

Variety is good! The fact the USA only has Mastercard and Visa and that they've colluded to keep all other forms of payments out is why their fees aren't lower. https://www.justice.gov/archives/opa/pr/justice-department-s... Japan has competition in payment systems. Paypay, D-Pay, Meri-pay, Line Pay, Rakuten Pay, etc... Each tries to entice both customers and retailers by offering discounts and bonuses. Also I'm happ…

USA has Visa, Mastercard, Discover, and AmEx. Each of which try to entice their customers by offering better rewards programs. Though AmEx isn't taken everywhere (notably Costco) and Discover is hit and miss as well.

Re: Japan's IC cards are weird and wonderful

#150

Post by Tijdreiziger »

lozenge wrote: post #121
cmcaleer wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope it lasts, but I'm seeing gates which have QR code readers, IC card readers,and contactless payment readers, which is obviously unsustainable. One or more of these will have to give eventually, and given Japan's tolerance for QR code payments (PayPay is massive) and foreigners' familiarity with contactless it seems like IC is the most likely one to go. I'd be sad if they do go or get relegated to some app, I lo…

I thought contactless is considered too slow? The exit gates are often open and only close when somebody attempts to pass without their IC card/insufficient balance on the IC card, how does this work with contactless? I feel like they could combine the IC and contactless reader into one bit of hardware with some engineering.

> I feel like they could combine the IC and contactless reader into one bit of hardware with some engineering.

This is the case in the Netherlands. The same readers accept the old OV-chipkaart (stored-value) system and the new OVpay (EMV) system.

Actually, I feel like when the OVpay system was rolled out, the existing OV-chipkaart readers simply got a firmware update, giving them the ability to read EMV cards and phones.

Both of these systems work across all tranit modes and operators in the entire country (and even at a few stations across the German border), and there are various models of reader that are used.

(note: OV = openbaar vervoer = public transport)

Post reply on HN