The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020) • Hacker News Board

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#141

Post by danielmarkbruce » Fri, May 02, 2025, 5:53 PM UTC

reverendsteveii wrote: post #88

jll29 wrote: post #78

There is no such thing as a "language brain" or a "math brain" unless you show experimentally that those bunch of neurons can be grouped into two non-overlapping regions dedicated to "language" and "mathematics". Mathematics itself is a human-made formal language that can be bootstrapped from definitions and axioms of logics and set theory, which have to be given in human language first. Experienced mathematicians re…

Dyscalculia, dysgraphia and dyslexia can all present independent of one another, heavily implying that different processes govern math, reading and writing. To call them "language brain" and "math brain" is simply a useful fiction, whether they're actually separate piles of meat is irrelevant.

math != calculation.

It's an actively stupid fiction for people who don't understand what math is.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#142

Post by Jensson » Fri, May 02, 2025, 5:55 PM UTC

deeThrow94 wrote: post #129

Jensson wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Language has nothing that corresponds to a recursive function, so that is a bad example. You can write a sentence that could correspond to a call to a recursive function, but its not the same thing as a recursive function. If recursion was just writing the function 10 times like you did in language then people wouldn't struggle with it.

Recursive functions are just a subset of all possibly recursive concepts. In the case of human spoken language, the recursion exists in our characterization of the grammar. You could just as easily frame this in "iterative" terms just like you can make any recursive function iterative, but that's less convenient for analysis. So in this case, "recursive function" would be "clause" or something like that; I'm no lingu…

> In the case of human spoken language, the recursion exists in our characterization of the grammar

But people are constructing sentences, not grammars. When you construct a grammar you can add a recursive part to it, that is true, just like in a programming language, but constructing grammars is not what people mean with language skills.

A sentence can't be recursive since languages in themselves has no concept of applying a concept, for that you need an interpretation of the language references. For example, you can have a recursive function written in a programming language that doesn't have a recursive grammar, the concepts are different things.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#143

Post by danielmarkbruce » Fri, May 02, 2025, 5:55 PM UTC

scripturial wrote: post #100

jll29 wrote: post #78

There is no such thing as a "language brain" or a "math brain" unless you show experimentally that those bunch of neurons can be grouped into two non-overlapping regions dedicated to "language" and "mathematics". Mathematics itself is a human-made formal language that can be bootstrapped from definitions and axioms of logics and set theory, which have to be given in human language first. Experienced mathematicians re…

> There is no such thing as a "language brain" or a "math brain" Tell that to the people who designed the study, the people that approved the study, and the people that funded the study. At the end of the day, the study set out certain criteria for assessing certain skill types/competencies and divided the people by those well defined criteria. I think it’s pretty hard to argue against the idea that people might have…

The types of people who do these types of experiments almost never have a real understanding of math. They equate arithmetic with math.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#144

Post by PartiallyTyped » Fri, May 02, 2025, 5:57 PM UTC

godelski wrote: post #113

It think this is silly on multiple accounts. I'll claim that there's not real thing such as a "language brain" or "math brain." I'll also claim that most people don't know what math is, and that their evidence supports a "math brain". Math isn't about calculations/computations, it is about patterns. You get to algebra and think "what are these letters doing in my math" but once you get further you think "what are the…

I am willing to bet good money that teaching pure mathematics like group theory, abstract algebra, or stuff like big Oh and combinatronics will do our kids a lot more good and advance them far more than calculus or geometry as taught in schools will.

I have the same experience as you did, in that studying by myself abstract algebra accelerated my learning and reasoning skills.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#145

Post by JohnMakin » Fri, May 02, 2025, 5:57 PM UTC

> There’s a lot of people out there who “aren’t math people,” but they just might be computer science people

This is beyond silly from my perspective. I know the field of CS is vast, but this seems to conflate programming with CS. My school was more theory heavy but there definitely came a point in certain paths of study where I didnt touch a line of code for a year, just pure math. I struggle to even understand how someone can think of this sentence - computer science at its core is underpinned by mathematics.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#146

Post by PartiallyTyped » Fri, May 02, 2025, 5:58 PM UTC

belinder wrote: post #130

godelski wrote: post #113

It think this is silly on multiple accounts. I'll claim that there's not real thing such as a "language brain" or "math brain." I'll also claim that most people don't know what math is, and that their evidence supports a "math brain". Math isn't about calculations/computations, it is about patterns. You get to algebra and think "what are these letters doing in my math" but once you get further you think "what are the…

Do you recommend any other resources for children to learn the basics of those theories?

A book of abstract algebra is very approachable!

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#147

Post by godelski » Fri, May 02, 2025, 5:59 PM UTC

belinder wrote: post #130

godelski wrote: post #113

It think this is silly on multiple accounts. I'll claim that there's not real thing such as a "language brain" or "math brain." I'll also claim that most people don't know what math is, and that their evidence supports a "math brain". Math isn't about calculations/computations, it is about patterns. You get to algebra and think "what are these letters doing in my math" but once you get further you think "what are the…

Do you recommend any other resources for children to learn the basics of those theories?

Unfortunately I don't know any direct resources. I really do hope they are out there and some will share.

But if you're willing to hunt, I know that this idea was attempted before[0]. France and USSR had better success than the US. I'm sure there are still people working in this direction. I don't have children, but fwiw I've taught my nieces and nephews algebra and even some of calculus before they were 10 just in visiting time during vacations. They were bored and it seemed more fun than talking about the drama, politics, and religion that the rest of my family likes to spend most of their time on. Kids were similarly disinterested in that stuff lol. I've also seen my god{son,daughter} be able to learn these types of skills, so I'm highly confident it is doable.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#148

Post by calebm » Fri, May 02, 2025, 5:59 PM UTC

This is why women are so dominant in the software development field - because women are known to have higher language skills than men.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#149

Post by rowanG077 » Fri, May 02, 2025, 5:59 PM UTC

JohnMakin wrote: post #145

> There’s a lot of people out there who “aren’t math people,” but they just might be computer science people This is beyond silly from my perspective. I know the field of CS is vast, but this seems to conflate programming with CS. My school was more theory heavy but there definitely came a point in certain paths of study where I didnt touch a line of code for a year, just pure math. I struggle to even understand how…

They call "numeracy" math skills. From that perspective it seems not that weird to call programming CS.

Re: The language brain matters more for programming than the math brain? (2020)

#150

Post by lo_zamoyski » Fri, May 02, 2025, 5:59 PM UTC

godelski wrote: post #113

It think this is silly on multiple accounts. I'll claim that there's not real thing such as a "language brain" or "math brain." I'll also claim that most people don't know what math is, and that their evidence supports a "math brain". Math isn't about calculations/computations, it is about patterns. You get to algebra and think "what are these letters doing in my math" but once you get further you think "what are the…

Math is about form and traditionally the science of quantity. It is called a formal science for this reason.

Language also concerns form. Grammar has form. Concepts are forms.

Math is language. 'Everything' is language. Language is the image of reality.

In the beginning was the Logos...