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Mike Lindell's lawyers used AI to write brief–judge finds nearly 30 mistakes

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Re: Mike Lindell's lawyers used AI to write brief–judge finds nearly 30 mistakes

#141
post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an LLM happens to know the answer to your question, that answer will have the greatest weight, and will therefore become a non-hallucinated output. Otherwise the output will be hallucinated. Note that a hallucination may manifest as an attempt to extrapolate, which may be successful. If you query an LLM with prior knowledge that the LLM doesn’t know the answer, you are guaranteed to receive a hallucinated output.…

But that's not how they actually work. > "If an LLM happens to know the answer to your question, that answer will have the greatest weight " An LLM doesn’t “know” anything in the way you’re imagining. It doesn’t have stored facts or indexed knowledge to check against, it just has weights learned between token sequences, and it outputs whatever next token is assigned the highest probability given the prompt and prior…

> An LLM doesn’t “know” anything in the way you’re imagining. It doesn’t have stored facts or indexed knowledge to check against

Neither does your brain and yet you do "know" something.

> but it might just as easily produce a plausible-sounding but wrong one, even if the correct information was in the training data

If the majority of information that was in the LLM's training data said 1 + 1 = 3, the LLM will tell you that 1 + 1 = 3, even if there was some information that said 1 + 1 = 2, and there's nothing wrong with that because the LLM is not supposed to fact-check.

> the model’s training biases it toward correct sequences more often than incorrect ones

No, the model's training biases it toward sequences that appear more frequently.

Re: Mike Lindell's lawyers used AI to write brief–judge finds nearly 30 mistakes

#142
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not "a little time"

Checking if a case exists or not is little time in the context of legal research.

Ok, now do this for every other mistake type mentioned in the article, and you've got yourself a case!

Re: Mike Lindell's lawyers used AI to write brief–judge finds nearly 30 mistakes

#143
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you could share the actual prompts & info you wanted I would be curious to try and see if it is indeed too complex for it or if prompting differently would work better, because I've had it produce tables with multiple columns pulling info from different sources for different columns before so that's definitely not a hard limit... so would be happy to come back to you either with advice on how to do it next time, o…

Prompt: I would like a list of east Indiamen from 1750 to 1800 where you can find how many tons burthen and how many crew. Show as a chart and give me the wikipedia links to the ships. Do not include any ships that do not have wikipedia links. Here's my customization: What do you do?: Software Engineer What traits should ChatGPT have?: Show all the options Be practical above all. Anything else ChatGPT should know abo…

I can’t decide whether I’m more tempted to feed it “Using Metadata to Find Paul Revere” as a prompt or try to see if it identifies Obra Dinn as an East Indiaman

Re: Mike Lindell's lawyers used AI to write brief–judge finds nearly 30 mistakes

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with checking, it turns a 3 day brief into a 4 hour brief. And, part of the process is to do some research first, find the key cases, and the briefs of better lawyers on the same issue, and include them in the context.

And the time savings are passed onto the clients?

Doubtful, because GP has to pay the subscription fees for all the LLMs he's employing. I know ChatGPT pro for deep research is $200/month, Gemini deep research is (I think) $20/month for now, Claude pro is $20/month. Cheap compared to lawyer rates but I doubt they'll stay cheap.

LexisNexis rates vary quite a lot but $200/month for a small law firm is in the ballpark.

Re: Mike Lindell's lawyers used AI to write brief–judge finds nearly 30 mistakes

#145
post #26

What I find really strange about this is I use AI a lot as a “smart friend” to work through explanations of things I find difficult etc and I am currently preparing for some exams so I will often give the AI a document and ask for some supporting resources to take the subject further and it almost always produces something that is plausibly close to a real thing but wrong in specifics. As in when you ask for a refere…

People are lazy. I’m enrolled in a language class in a foreign country right now - so presumably people taking that class want to actually get good at the language so they can actually live their life here - yet a significant portion of students just turn in ChatGPT essays. And I don’t mean essays edited with chatGPT, but essays that are clearly verbatim output. When the teacher asks the students to read them out lou…

I’m a programmer who speaks English and Japanese as foreign languages. My colleagues have access to LLMs, and before that google translate and DeepL. Yet still I am asked a lot about my cultural opinion on how to approach the Japanese side, even in English. Perhaps this serves as a hint to you that robotic translation is not everything.

Re: Mike Lindell's lawyers used AI to write brief–judge finds nearly 30 mistakes

#146
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not correct, and seems to be based on a common misunderstanding of how LLMs work, the rough idea being that when the info the model is being asked for had been in the data used for training, it "looks it up" not unlike software looking up info from a huge database of general knowledge, and that when that lookup fails it falls back to making stuff up. But that's wrong, the models are actually doing the exact sa…

If an LLM happens to know the answer to your question, that answer will have the greatest weight, and will therefore become a non-hallucinated output. Otherwise the output will be hallucinated. Note that a hallucination may manifest as an attempt to extrapolate, which may be successful. If you query an LLM with prior knowledge that the LLM doesn’t know the answer, you are guaranteed to receive a hallucinated output.…

It's trivial to prove this is wrong: invert relationships it knows about and it fails to answer based on knowledge it previously demonstrated (even with loads of hints)

https://chatgpt.com/share/680dc86c-f0dc-800d-9f04-57ba2f126a...

https://chatgpt.com/share/680dc90b-de28-800d-92b6-f2ef824777...

Note how applying increasing pressure to answer was what caused the hallucination: hallucinations aren't tied to if the model "knows" something.

Once the tokens output don't fall into the start of some varation of "I don't know", the model is going to answer regardless of what it knows.

Re: Mike Lindell's lawyers used AI to write brief–judge finds nearly 30 mistakes

#147
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s such a ridiculous statement.

Yep. > [learning a language is] only helpful for high professional tasks or close literary study or prestige. This is a person who doesn't understand actual face-to-face communication, like, at all. Even though translation apps are amazing, in a social interaction, there's no getting over the imposition of the halting, hesitant back-and-forth of device-assisted translation. Sure, you can almost always eventually get…

Sure, but how often does that happen in most people’s lives, especially in the US?

When they’re on vacation? Very few people are going to learn a language that they could use for a week or two in a place where people probably speak English better than whatever language you’re attempting anyways.

Obviously there are exceptions.

Re: Mike Lindell's lawyers used AI to write brief–judge finds nearly 30 mistakes

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If an LLM happens to know the answer to your question You're missing the point. It doesn't "know" anything. The only thing it can "know" is the statistical relationships between tokens in its dataset. It doesn't "know" anything about the meaning of those tokens. It doesn't even "know" whether it "knows" anything or not. The best it can do is "Here's a recursively generated string of ASCII codes that are statistical…

> It doesn't "know" anything. The word know is an abstraction I use in order to avoid going into technical details. > That's not a very useful interpretation because it's not grounded in technical reality. My interpretation aligns with what people generally mean by hallucination, and it's definitely more useful than saying that any output is hallucination.

The difference is: what people generally mean by hallucination is "LLM said something wrong as if it was right". And what you are adding to that in your previous comments is the concept of whether or not the LLM knows the right answer. Which it never does. That's where your interpretation and the general interpretation differ.

I'm afraid I don't personally see how to explain more clearly, so will just say instead that given multiple people are in this thread telling you your understanding of how LLMs work isn't right, please consider that to at least be a possibility and look into it further rather than digging deeper into your current beliefs.

Re: Mike Lindell's lawyers used AI to write brief–judge finds nearly 30 mistakes

#149

What I find really strange about this is I use AI a lot as a “smart friend” to work through explanations of things I find difficult etc and I am currently preparing for some exams so I will often give the AI a document and ask for some supporting resources to take the subject further and it almost always produces something that is plausibly close to a real thing but wrong in specifics. As in when you ask for a refere…

I think it's easy to understand why people are overestimating the accuracy and performance of LLM-based output: it's currently being touted as the replacement for human labor in a large number of fields. Outside of software development there are fewer optimistic skeptics and much less nuanced takes on the tech. Casually scrolling through TechCrunch I see over $1B in very recent investments into legal-focused startups…

I take the charitable view that some high profile people painted themselves into a corner very publicly. I think they made an estimation that they could work out the kinks as they went, but it's becoming apparent that the large early gains were not sustainable. And now there appears to be some very fundamental limitations to what this architecture can achieve and everyone involved has basically little option other than to keep doubling down. I expect this to blow up spectacularly pretty soon.

Re: Mike Lindell's lawyers used AI to write brief–judge finds nearly 30 mistakes

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If an LLM happens to know the answer to your question, that answer will have the greatest weight, and will therefore become a non-hallucinated output. Otherwise the output will be hallucinated. Note that a hallucination may manifest as an attempt to extrapolate, which may be successful. If you query an LLM with prior knowledge that the LLM doesn’t know the answer, you are guaranteed to receive a hallucinated output.…

It's trivial to prove this is wrong: invert relationships it knows about and it fails to answer based on knowledge it previously demonstrated (even with loads of hints) https://chatgpt.com/share/680dc86c-f0dc-800d-9f04-57ba2f126a... https://chatgpt.com/share/680dc90b-de28-800d-92b6-f2ef824777... Note how applying increasing pressure to answer was what caused the hallucination: hallucinations aren't tied to if the mod…

This is a logical problem that requires reasoning. Bring the fact that Barry White’s mother is Sadie Marie Carter into the context and it should then be able to infer who Sadie Marie Carter’s son is.
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