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Don't force your kids to do math

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Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#141

Post by 0xDEAFBEAD »

Something I've been thinking a lot about is "stealth edutainment" games.

When I was a kid, I remember "edutainment" games that were basically like normal computer games, except every so often a homework problem pops up.

I think that doesn't work super well. Better is a game which has you learning naturally, in order to play the game more effectively. For example, I've been enjoying the computer game Slay the Spire recently, and there is a great deal of mental math which is inherent to the game. If I had a kid, I think I might give them that game as a method to motivate them to learn arithmetic.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#142

Post by ilt »

milesrout wrote: post #136
tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate... (also, why is it always piano that parents try to force on children?)

They don't hate it. They dislike being bad at it, they dislike working hard at things, and they like video games and scrolling on their phones. And yes practicing will result in them getting better.

I think this is the crux. Nobody likes to fail, kids included. And their attention span is wonky too so they may not see much value in learning from failure/s since there are so many other attractive things asking for their attention and they would rather do them.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#143

Post by lordnacho »

jamesy0ung wrote: post #53

As someone who just finished school, I’m trying to figure out how to get genuinely interested in mathematics. I’ve never been particularly strong at it, yet I’m planning to enter a university program that demands a high level of math. The problem is, it’s hard to motivate myself to study math for its own sake. For example, I loved learning programming because it’s hands‑on—I can build something and immediately see th…

Don't study it for usefulness, study it for beauty. Look for amazing insights.

Yes, you need some practical math as well. I did engineering, there's a lot of inelegant stuff there.

But that stuff actually tends to be right next to some very interesting things.

Here are three things you can find out.

First, there's more than one kind of infinity. You can't make a map from natural numbers like 1, 2, 3 etc to real numbers like e, 0.632268, sqrt(2) etc. Look for Cantor diagonalization.

Second, a random walk like a heads vs tails comes back to zero almost certainly. It also does so in two dimensions, like walking randomly in Manhattan. In three dimensions, it does not, and so for higher dimensions. Look for Polya.

Third. There is a way for you and me to communicate secretly, despite everyone in HN being able to see our entire exchange. Look for Diffie Helmann.

These days, there's a whole industry of people doing math videos with interesting stuff.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#144

Post by milesrout »

renerick wrote: post #119
somenameforme wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This becomes even more true in higher level maths where programming language style functions would make everything vastly more clear, and easily typeable, than the traditional Greek symbols. sum(x+3, 1, 4) is just so much more clear (and consistent when generalized across other operations) and practically as concise as the mathematical way of expressing that which I cannot even type. Multiple variables would be a bit…

It's hard to debate that mathematical notation has a lot of room for improvement. High level algebra is very cryptic and often looks like an arcane incantation rather than something comprehensible for an unknowing person. That said, as a person who moderately enjoyed math in high school and university, this functional notation would make me hate math infinitely more. It's would look like Lisp, which, at high level, l…

The notation as it is works very well. It looks unfamiliar to you because you aren't familiar with it.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#145

Post by blitzar »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #134
laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

If the kid isn't enjoying the piano lessons, will forcing them to do it for 20 minutes every day really be beneficial? Sure, they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate... (also, why is it always piano that parents try to force on children?)

> they will now be able to do something - something that they absolutely hate

A valuable life skill if you want to ever have a job or get paid.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#146

Post by trinix912 »

XorNot wrote: post #28
add-sub-mul-div wrote: post #20

Something we don't pay enough attention to is that while calculators have solved everyday math to the point we downplay it as a required skill, people are not pulling out their calculator at the grocery store to make better purchase decisions, even though we all have one in our pocket now. So we handwave the importance of being able to do everyday math in our heads, while also not taking advantage of the tool that's…

But the reality is that's usually almost a false trade - I'm not buying one item in the grocery store I'm buying easily a dozen or more. The best way to do this would be toss the online inventory into a solver to calculate "best value" for me, but in reality it would be a waste of time because if they're out of something, or the quality looks suspect, then that blows that calculation completely. And then am I going t…

> In Australia at least this whole problem was perfectly adequately solved by mandating bulk price labeling on all items in the supermarket. Products in comparable categories have per volume/weight prices listed alongside item prices.

Same in Europe. Mandatory labeling per volume/weight, pre-discount, after-VAT in addition to the discounted item prices. Then you glance at the shelves and make up your mind.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#147

Post by Jensson »

openplatypus wrote: post #133
laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

> The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Such a bold claim coming from some who does not share their credentials on the matter. My kid will do everything as long as it is interesting. My sample of 1 contradicts your claim, but neither of us are experts on the matter.

> My kid will do everything as long as it is interesting

Difficult things aren't interesting locally, you have to practice boring things in order to do interesting things in difficult subjects. Some kids do practice boring things if you just ask them, but most do not.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#148

Post by [deleted] »

laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

[deleted]

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#149

Post by ohgr »

openplatypus wrote: post #133
laurent_du wrote: post #102

Very poor take. The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Playing music, learning to spell correctly, doing mathematics, and so on. A very small minority of kids will do all of that easily and for the fun, but you can't rely on it. If you don't push your kid to do their 20 minutes of piano every day, they will half-ass it and will sto…

> The author clearly has very limited experience with raising kids. Most kids won't do difficult things if you don't push them. Such a bold claim coming from some who does not share their credentials on the matter. My kid will do everything as long as it is interesting. My sample of 1 contradicts your claim, but neither of us are experts on the matter.

Sample size 3 here and they are all adults and all STEM grads.

You have to push them, but push them right. That's a combination of coercion and encouragement and helping them avoid procrastination. There are hills to climb and they need helping over them to where the good stuff is.

I remember my eldest crying over ratios at the dining table. Then algebra at the kitchen table. Then crying again at real analysis in the pub with me. She graduated with a first in the end.

Re: Don't force your kids to do math

#150

Post by scandox »

guerrilla wrote: post #109
lukan wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different point of view: do you consider hunting in the wilderness to be difficult? I do, it requires being still in miserable conditions for a long time, being cold, wet, mosquitos, and then usually still no success, but frustration. But to my knowledge, no savage kid is in need of being forced to learn it. "children sense your true passions and naturally want to join in" And that is my experience as well. But if yo…

> But to my knowledge, no savage kid is in need of being forced to learn it Uhh then your knowledge is very limited because that is rather well documented. Also, why are you saying "savage" like an 18th century racist? Is that in fashion again?

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