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DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

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Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#141
post #88
post #33

I have no idea how a for-profit company can exist that solely produces a browser. There's only one model that can work long-term here: collective ownership. The closest model is probably the Wikimedia Foundation. Firefox and the Mozilla Foundation are here, obviously, but they've tried to act like a corporation with rising costs and lower earnings going over years. The money Google pays them is basically poison. Linu…

A Browser with 65% share of the worlds web access can be leveraged to do a lot of things.

That share will plummet to near 0% the moment it is transferred because people will just switch to Chromium.

The only difference between Chrome without Google and Chromium is the name and logo. You lose all integration with Google services like sync, suggestions, etc.

You'd be stuck with only the captives that can't switch because they're using older appliances with Chrome baked in.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how this worldview coexists with countries like Russia and China. If the feds kneecap US companies, it's not going to make the next generation of US companies stronger, just cede influence to worse jurisdictions.

Smaller companies would be more nimble and efficient. Also, Google’s main dominant product (e.g. search & ads) would be forced to compete & innovate vs leveraging Chrome & Android to keep themselves dominant.

Smaller is less efficient. They don't get to benefit from economy of scale as much as larger.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of smashing up successful businesses, you should tax them, and use the tax revenue to improve deficiencies in the market. The deficiency in the market is that laws exist that allow market concentration. Should we tax them to fund regulatory reform? > If the government thinks there should be more browsers, (or mobile os's) they should tax the existing ones and pay folks to improve the open source alternative…

You've twisted the argument to be about DRM. That's a completely separate issue. The only people to blame for DRM are the people who use it on their content, not the platforms that are forced to implement it. The _cause_ of monopolies are successful businesses. I don't have a problem with successful businesses. I also don't have a problem with monopolies per se. If I invent some cool thing and I'm the only person in…

> You've twisted the argument to be about DRM. That's a completely separate issue. The only people to blame for DRM are the people who use it on their content, not the platforms that are forced to implement it.

The people to blame for DRM are the legislators who created laws allowing DRM to be used for anti-competitive lock-in, which is its primary purpose.

> The _cause_ of monopolies are successful businesses.

That doesn't track. Costco is a successful business, does it have a monopoly? Starbucks? Honda? Dell? McDonald's? Adidas?

> If I invent some cool thing and I'm the only person in the world doing it, I have a monopoly - good for me. If I can deliver a product better than everybody else, and everybody else chooses to not compete with me any more, also good for me.

The only time this happens for a non-trivial period of time in the absence of anti-competitive practices or regulations is for so-called natural monopolies. Otherwise there would be low barriers to entry and correspondingly someone else wanting to make some money by entering the market.

And even natural monopolies are extremely narrow. They tend to get drawn with thick lines because whoever holds the natural monopoly will be trying to tie all kinds of other services to it through vertical integration, e.g. the natural monopoly is "roadside fiber conduit" rather than "internet service" no matter how much the utility company wants to insist that you should have to buy internet service from the company that digs the trench or installs the utility poles.

> Predatory pricing or agreements that restrict who can use your product, or what others can do.

Oh, you meant predatory pricing in terms of dumping rather than charging monopoly rents.

The problem is that's basically not a thing for digital goods because dumping is selling below the marginal cost and the marginal cost for digital goods is zero.

And corporations are sneaky. To reiterate the DRM point, what Google does with remote attestation is extremely nefarious, not least because it's simultaneously subtle and effective.

What they do is, provide remote attestation services to third parties for Google-approved devices. Then things like bank apps require them, even though they provide no real benefit, because they're marketed as providing "security" and risk-averse bank managers don't want to be seen not using a hypothetical security feature. But now anyone who wants to make a competing device that isn't approved by Google can't pass attestation and therefore can't get customers because customers expect their bank app to work.

Then it's the banks rather than Google requiring you to use a Google-approved Android device and Google will claim they didn't require anything even though Google providing that otherwise-useless feature has in reality created a large anti-competitive barrier for anyone trying to make a competing device without Google's approval.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#144
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't antitrust laws apply to companies from other countries? If you ban tying app stores to phone platforms and then China creates a phone platform and wants to tie an app store to it, they're not any less banned from selling that into your market than a domestic company.

There's a whole world outside the US and China that companies are competing in.

A market the size of the US or the EU is large enough to sustain a domestic industry. Competing suppliers can then recover their fixed costs from the markets where they're protected against monopolistic practices, which sustains their existence, and then sell into the other markets with the backing of a stable competitive domestic supply chain that can't be degraded by anti-competitive practices.

Example: Right now if you want to create a competing phone without Google, you lose most of the apps in the Play Store because they're encouraged to have dependencies on Google services. If that was prohibited in a large market then app developers couldn't assume those dependencies are available and the APIs would either have to become an open source part of stock Android or developers would use platform-independent third party libraries. Then the apps made for that market could run on a third party device -- but developers aren't going to make separate apps for different markets, they're just going to avoid the proprietary APIs that aren't available in a major market, and then those apps don't have those proprietary dependencies in the other markets either and your domestic competitor can compete there too.

Also, the whole world outside the US and China wouldn't even have the excuse of protecting domestic megacorps as a reason not to have strong antitrust laws themselves.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've twisted the argument to be about DRM. That's a completely separate issue. The only people to blame for DRM are the people who use it on their content, not the platforms that are forced to implement it. The _cause_ of monopolies are successful businesses. I don't have a problem with successful businesses. I also don't have a problem with monopolies per se. If I invent some cool thing and I'm the only person in…

> You've twisted the argument to be about DRM. That's a completely separate issue. The only people to blame for DRM are the people who use it on their content, not the platforms that are forced to implement it. The people to blame for DRM are the legislators who created laws allowing DRM to be used for anti-competitive lock-in, which is its primary purpose. > The _cause_ of monopolies are successful businesses. That…

>The problem is that's basically not a thing for digital goods because dumping is selling below the marginal cost and the marginal cost for digital goods is zero.

Gmail is free, Docs is free, Maps is free, lots of google apps are free. This makes it very difficult few a new player to enter the market. This is predatory pricing.

Nothing else you said is really relevant to the forced sale of Chrome.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#146
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Browser with 65% share of the worlds web access can be leveraged to do a lot of things.

That share will plummet to near 0% the moment it is transferred because people will just switch to Chromium. The only difference between Chrome without Google and Chromium is the name and logo. You lose all integration with Google services like sync, suggestions, etc. You'd be stuck with only the captives that can't switch because they're using older appliances with Chrome baked in.

People only know the name and logo, they dont care whos behind it. 99% of users just click that little coloured circle to open 'the internet', they know nothing past that. They will continue to download Chrome for many years to come.

The market share will drop, but slowly and over decades. That will give some greedy company plenty of time to milk it for all its worth.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#147
post #137
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft have always made a point that they can never compete with Google on price of office apps, therefore they try to compete on service, support, and included bells and whistles. This is why when you buy an O365 license you basically get anything Microsoft has ever developed thrown in with it. Office is Microsofts bread and butter, for Google its a side project that disrupts Microsofts business model.

> Microsoft have always made a point that they can never compete with Google on price of office apps, therefore they try to compete on service, support, and included bells and whistles. So... you're saying the presence in the market of a viable competitor improved the value provided to consumers? Who knew!

No Im saying that a big company decided to piss off another big company by offering their main product for free, just because they had infinite money and could. Thats disruption not competition, and you can be sure if Chrome is taken away, the price for Google office apps will increase.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#148

I think Google should just be split up into baby Google's that each have to cooperate with each other. Like we did with Bell. Also we should do the same thing to Microsoft, Amazon and Facebook. In fact I think we should do it again to AT&T and also Comcast. This should probably be done every so often as maintenance.

I don't understand how this worldview coexists with countries like Russia and China. If the feds kneecap US companies, it's not going to make the next generation of US companies stronger, just cede influence to worse jurisdictions.

I think with the current monopolistic trajectory there will not be the next generation of US companies because current companies just buy up everything that shows any kind of potential. There's no benefit to society from trillion-dollar companies - they don't need to innovate and they have the power to stop any would-be competitors.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#149
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Browser with 65% share of the worlds web access can be leveraged to do a lot of things.

The big question is, would it keep that market share without Google. The big selling point of Google Chrome is the seamless integration with all the other Google services.

> The big selling point of Google Chrome is the seamless integration with all the other Google services.

People keep saying this, but everybody I have spoken to dont care about that. They are just used to pressing the coloured circle icon to get on the internet. That muscle memory and brand recognition will be around for many years to come.

Re: DOJ: Google must sell Chrome, Android could be next

#150
post #16

Let's wait how long it takes for Trump's crypto / meme coin to get a spike and this DOJ thing to go away. After all, all is transactional with Trump.

How would that work, exactly? Would Google’s search algorithm highlight pro-TRUMP articles to pump the token price? I think you’ll be waiting a long time.

nope, just a direct payment, but since it's crypto it's untracable. Basically money laundering. Why do you think the purpose is of all these shit-coins (besides pump-and-dumps).
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