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My LLM codegen workflow

harper.blog

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Re: My LLM codegen workflow

#141

Post by krupan »

mdrzn wrote: post #139
krupan wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously!! Coding with LLM's is marketed as a huge time saver, but every time I've tried, it hasn't been. I'm told I just need to put in the time (ironic, no?) to learn to use the LLM properly. Why don't I just use that time to learn to write code better myself?

Seriously!! Cars are marketed as a huge time saver, but every time I’ve tried one, they haven’t been. I’m told I just need to put in the time (ironic, no?) to learn to drive properly. Why don’t I just use that time to train my legs and run faster instead?

I think the difference here is it is not at all obvious to me that an LLM is a force multiplier on same the order as cars to legs.

Cars are pretty easy to observe in action doing what they promise to do. Driving a car is a very straightforward, mechanical, repeatable, intuitive operation.

Working with an LLM is not repeatable or straightforward.

I'm short, your analogy is not helping me

Re: My LLM codegen workflow

#142

Post by StableAlkyne »

HPsquared wrote: post #132
briga wrote: post #73

Absolutely LLMs are great for greenfield projects. They can get you to a prototype for a new idea faster than any tool yet invented. Where they start to break down, I find, is when you ask it to make changes/refactors to existing code and mature projects. They usually lack context, so they doesn't hesitate to introduce lots of extra complexity, add frameworks you don't need, and in general just make the situation wor…

LLM coding is quite well-suited to projects that apply the Unix philosophy. Highly modular systems that can be broken into small components that do one thing well.

I've found modularity to be helpful in general whether there's an LLM or not.

Easier to test, lower cognitive overload, and it's faster to onboard someone when they only need to understand a small part at a time.

I almost wonder if these LLMs can be used to assess the barrier for onboarding. If it gets confused and generating shitty suggestions, I wonder if that could that be a good informal smoke alarm for trouble areas the next junior will run into.

Re: My LLM codegen workflow

#143

Post by harper »

simonw wrote: post #31
Isamu wrote: post #16

I’m curious, is adding “do not hallucinate” to prompts effective in preventing hallucinations? The author does this.

Apple were using that in their Apple Intelligence system prompts last year, I don't know if they still have that in there. https://simonwillison.net/2024/Aug/6/apple-intelligence-prom... I have no idea if it works or not!

I added it because of the apple prompts! I figured it is worth a try. The results are good, but i did not test it extensively

Re: My LLM codegen workflow

#144

Post by harper »

fragmede wrote: post #7
harper wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most of this is aider / codegen: Total tokens in: 26,729,994 Total tokens out: 1,553,284 Last month anthropic bill was $89.30 -- I want to program with a team, together. not a group of people individually coding with an agent, and then managing merges. I have been playing a lot with merging team context - but haven't gotten too far yet.

Have you tried using OpenHands so you can just give it the todo.md until it gets stuck/is finished?

when it first was released i played with it - but haven't since. i should try again.

Re: My LLM codegen workflow

#145

Post by harper »

jdenning wrote: post #86

Question to folks with good workflows: Are you using tools like DSPy to generate prompts? Any other tools/tips about managing prompts?

i really wanted to use DSPy to generate prompts, but it wasn't quite as compatible with my workflow as i wanted. I love the idea tho - code instead of strings.

i will dig in again. It is an exciting idea.

Re: My LLM codegen workflow

#147

Post by harper »

jacooper wrote: post #21

I find making the LLMs think and plan the project a bit worrying, I understand this helps with procrastination but when these systems eventually get better and more integrated, the most likely thing to happen to software devs is them moving away from purely coding to more of a solution architect role (aka Planning stuff), not taking into account the negative impact of giving up critical thinking to LLMs. https://news…

I actually think it is going to be way worse than you are suggesting. I think that the LLM codegen is going to replace most if not all of software eng workflow and teams that we see today.

Software is going to be prompt wrangling with some acceptance testing. Then just prompt wrangling.

I don't have a lot of hope for the software profession to survive.

Re: My LLM codegen workflow

#148

Post by harper »

krupan wrote: post #120

If I have to go to this much effort, what is AI buying us here? Why don't we just put the effort in to learn to write code ourselves? Instead of troubleshooting AI problems and coming up with clever workarounds for those problems, troubleshoot your code, solve those problems directly!

the speed is way faster. I am a good programmer with more than 25 years of professional experience. The AI is a better programmer in every way. Why do it myself when i can outsource it and play cookie clicker?

The real thing that sold me is the entire workflow takes 10 minutes to plan, and then 10-15 minutes to execute (let's say a python script of medium complexity). after a solid ~20-30 min I am largely done. no debugging necessary.

it would have taken me an hour or two to do the same script.

this means i can spend a lot more time with the fam, hacking on more things, and messing about.

Re: My LLM codegen workflow

#149

Post by harper »

dfltr wrote: post #37

> Legacy modern code As opposed to Vintage Pioneer code?

in my experience, there is quite a spectrum of legacy code.

Legacy modern code would be anything from the last 5-10 years. Vintage Pioneer code (which i have both initialized, and maintained) is more than 20 years old.

I am trying not to be a vintage pioneer these days.

Re: My LLM codegen workflow

#150

Post by harper »

sejje wrote: post #109
psadri wrote: post #92

One more tool he could make is one to wrap that entire process so there is less copy/pasting needed.

Aider, a tool he uses, can do that automatically. He could just use that feature.

Yea - i have had OK luck with the architect mode. but was using that as part of this (using deepseek for reasoning) and it good. but oh so slow.

Ultimately, i would love to just use one tool

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