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Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

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Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#141

Post by gruez »

amluto wrote: post #93
tomohawk wrote: post #2

Hundreds of qualified applicants were denied jobs through a "Biographical Assessment" that you can take yourself: https://kaisoapbox.com/projects/faa_biographical_assessment/ Spend a bit of time taking it and it's clear what at least one reason for this shortage is.

And yet, this utter nonsense doesn’t appear to be DEI nonsense, just incompetence. I imagine this was the result of an inappropriate and inadvertently p-hacked analysis of a silly survey of existing employees, along with a large helping of unjustified assumptions. This is the kind of thing that might be, gradually, mitigated by improved high school math education. We don’t need more calculus to fix this, and we also…

>And yet, this utter nonsense doesn’t appear to be DEI nonsense, just incompetence.

??? From the OP:

"This assessment was implemented in large part due to a push for diversity among ATCs by the National Black Coalition of Federal Aviation Employees (NBCFAE)."

And from your link:

"In 2012 and 2013, the NBCFAE continued pushing this process, with members meeting with the DOT, FAA, Congressional Black Caucus, and others to push diversity among ATCs. "

I can't see how anyone would read those two sentences and conclude "this utter nonsense doesn’t appear to be DEI nonsense". Diversity, the D in DEI was specifically the reason why it was implemented.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#142

Post by coin »

giantg2 wrote: post #106
coin wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Large craft could have ADS-B tracking of a 1-3 mile bubble displayed to them. This would add a check to being blindly told what to do and blindly trusting that others are doing what they're told. Already exists, it's called TCAS

That doesn't work with all transponders, right? Many private or military craft don't work with that system.

TCAS works with Mode-C (same as military Mode 3).

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#143

Post by hwillis »

cogman10 wrote: post #14
giantg2 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you modernize the system (not just tech but potentially the procedures). Kind of stupid to increase air traffic and traffic density over decades and just expect the old systems to scale.

I'm not sure this is something that is solved by tech. It sounds like they simply don't have enough staff, whether that a budget problem or hiring problem IDK. The article mentions they have a 50% reduction in new hires which either says it's hard to be competent, the job is too demanding, or both. They had 1 tower with 1 operator and no redundancy at a fairly busy airport, which is definitely concerning.

It is a budget problem, not a hiring problem: https://thehill.com/regulation/transportation/4617992-buttig...

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#144

Post by hwillis »

perihelions wrote: post #23
n1b0m wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was dropped in 2018

Then it's topical for understanding the makeup of ATC controllers right now, isn't it? The impact of hiring decisions in 2018 would continue through their retirement age in the 2050's. We still talk about Reagan's mass-firing of ATC controllers, and that event was in *1981*. The impact is multi-generational and is still very visible.

It is a budget problem.

https://thehill.com/regulation/transportation/4617992-buttig...

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#145

Post by eCa »

cubano wrote: post #51

I find it almost completely mind boggling that with all the breathless new coverage on the "incredible shortage of qualified tower personnel", I have yet to hear even one mention of what I find to be the elephant in the room. Uhhh...why not use AI to start controlling the airports and airplanes? Talk about an app that, to me at least, seems an almost trivial use of its abilities and I'm sure that an AI could be train…

Would you say handling air traffic control is easier than setting up a LAMP server?

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#146

Post by xeromal »

brookst wrote: post #81
duxup wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think “sense of urgency”, “trouble shooting”, “understanding what is influencing other people’s actions” and even the ability to run a sort of “run a mental simulation and anticipate second order effects” are uncommon skills. I worked with a good technical support team that worked on some high end equipment, and regardless of education the ability to troubleshoot could be found regardless and … in spite of educatio…

Some of the best troubleshooters I’ve ever met were comparatively uneducated factory workers in Mexico who just assumed they were diagnosing for diagnosing and fixing everything from forklifts to PBX systems. The culture of that factory was amazing.

Redneck problem solving. I saw it growing up in Georgia too. People with 6th grade educations just knowing intuitively how to accomplish things without actually knowing the science behind it.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#147

Post by Levitz »

Loudergood wrote: post #82
Ekaros wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is 3-year training process is it not the previous administration that is to blame? Surely they would have trained enough people. And it is not like huge amount of controllers were fired just now?

It's the last 3 or 4 administrations to blame at this point, and they were just offered early retirement deals.

This is the funniest thing of all: it's just a shitfest all around.

Here's an article about the air-controller shortage, from 2014: https://www.cnbc.com/2014/12/15/blame-the-faa-for-air-traffi...

Here's more! from 2008: https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna22917202

Here's a substack post from last year, talking about a legal case spanning back a decade and how, what do you know, DEI is actually involved in this whole fiasco to a tiny degree: https://www.tracingwoodgrains.com/p/the-faas-hiring-scandal-...

It's impossible, completely impossible to in good faith blame any one actor on this issue, this goes way too far back.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#148

Post by beej71 »

tredre3 wrote: post #133
brookst wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, if you’ll also entertain a non-hypothetical that DEI does not mean hiring quotas where you refuse to fill open spots, it means proactively reaching out to find talent in non-traditional areas (e.g. doing a job fair at an urban vocational school in addition to the usual ones at mostly-white colleges). And, if for some reason it turns out that the FAA was doing a terrible job of DEI and somehow was trying to meet…

> if you’ll also entertain a non-hypothetical that DEI does not mean hiring quotas where you refuse to fill open spots I'm sure this is true about the FAA, I have no reason to doubt you, but quotas are a very real part of DEI in other sectors and slots do stay open until they find a suitable quota-fitting candidate.

I don't doubt that some quotas exist somewhere. I just don't know where and have never encountered them in any of my jobs and they're probably illegal.

Our DEI training at my current work is "always hire the most qualified person for the job". And that's what it was at my previous job, as well.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#149

Post by leoqa »

RandomBacon wrote: post #84
duxup wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think “sense of urgency”, “trouble shooting”, “understanding what is influencing other people’s actions” and even the ability to run a sort of “run a mental simulation and anticipate second order effects” are uncommon skills. I worked with a good technical support team that worked on some high end equipment, and regardless of education the ability to troubleshoot could be found regardless and … in spite of educatio…

ATC here (opinions are my own, not of the FAA, etc) I agree those uncommon skills help make someone be a good controller. Unfortunately I don't think the FAA is testing for that, of course the hiring process tests have changed since I was hired on. (I hope someone from the FAA is reading this and tells CAMI. I was disappointed when there was no free text response on the survey they gave out a few weeks ago.)

It seems like the biggest blocker for hiring is location selection.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#150

Post by giantg2 »

coin wrote: post #142
giantg2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't work with all transponders, right? Many private or military craft don't work with that system.

TCAS works with Mode-C (same as military Mode 3).

So why didn't it work?
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