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JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

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Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#141

Post by screye »

999900000999 wrote: post #21

I dislike RTO for one simple reason . I'm not at work to make friends, I'm not at work to chit chat. I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last football game . I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for . Most of the time coming to the off…

I dislike RTO because none of that happens anymore. The economic landscape is too paranoid (despite positive macro indicators) for employees to enjoy work.

People don't want to chit chat, just clock in clock out. Layoffs threat is ever present. Remote & odd-time zone meetings are still here. Can't turn off my computer after 5pm. In office benefits are limited. Mentoring, learning-seminars and after-work activities are soft discouraged.

Why even come in ? _____________

> what's the point of a city like New York

I agree that RTO mandates have to do with keeping downtown office space prices high. But, if you could work from anywhere, why wouldn't you want to be in the coolest city in the world? You don't need to be in Manhattan. But you can get some pretty great apartments while still being a 30 minutes subway ride from downtown.

I visited NYC regularly through Covid, and it seemed quite lively.

Remember, us programmers are a famously introverted & indoor bunch. Most people want to be in places with rich social lives apart from their smaller intimate communities.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#142

Post by brookst »

gruez wrote: post #119
lenerdenator wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. In a few cases (certainly not all), it's to keep the c-suite's reputation sustainable. If you're a CEO that signed a lease or construction contract on any piece of property since, idk, 2015, you have, in some way, burned a lot of money on a piece of ground that could have, in many cases, been replaced with a far cheaper int…

>If you're a CEO that signed a lease or construction contract on any piece of property since, idk, 2015, you have, in some way, burned a lot of money on a piece of ground that could have, in many cases, been replaced with a far cheaper internet connection and suite of remote work applications. >1) explain this bonfire of cash to the board and possibly to shareholders, which is a pretty good way to see yourself shown…

Especially since board members are typically execs at other companies. Anyone remotely competent knows that the macro changes leading to remote work surprised everyone. I just don't find it credible that RTO is about CEO's wanting to keep office leases looking like smart decisions.

If anything, it's exactly the opposite. If remote work is genuinely good for the company, a good CEO will acknowledge that and work to minimize downside from unnecessary leases.

IMO execs are often wrong about RTO, but for simple cause/effect reasons, not elaborate conspiracies to retroactively justify office leases.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#143

Post by lenerdenator »

gruez wrote: post #119
lenerdenator wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. In a few cases (certainly not all), it's to keep the c-suite's reputation sustainable. If you're a CEO that signed a lease or construction contract on any piece of property since, idk, 2015, you have, in some way, burned a lot of money on a piece of ground that could have, in many cases, been replaced with a far cheaper int…

>If you're a CEO that signed a lease or construction contract on any piece of property since, idk, 2015, you have, in some way, burned a lot of money on a piece of ground that could have, in many cases, been replaced with a far cheaper internet connection and suite of remote work applications. >1) explain this bonfire of cash to the board and possibly to shareholders, which is a pretty good way to see yourself shown…

They're not expected to have predicted the next pandemic; rather, they're expected to come up with novel ideas of how to do business. That's the point, or, rather, the justification for why just one year of one job can have them set for life. You get paid an insane amount of money - many multiples of the median lifetime income of Americans - because you make the right bets that either save the company massive sums of money, create new revenue streams, or both.

We were having "disaster recovery" days at my old employer in 2015. You found a place outside the office to attempt to do your work from, and made adjustments to make your various pieces of technology work. It worked, and the implications of it working should have been obvious to our betters.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#144

Post by nunez »

999900000999 wrote: post #21

I dislike RTO for one simple reason . I'm not at work to make friends, I'm not at work to chit chat. I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last football game . I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for . Most of the time coming to the off…

Fun fact: We have a place called Billy Bob's Bagels in Houston, and it's actually fantastic!

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#145

Post by noticing »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #36
HamsterDan wrote: post #25

Workers need to tread carefully here. If you there's no need to be in the office, what's to stop corporate from replacing you with an Indian that costs 1/3rd as much? Push back too hard on RTO and you may not have a job at all in five years.

Ah, the I’ll replace you with an Indian routine that’s been going on for over 25 years years of my career.

[dead]

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#146

Post by surgical_fire »

screye wrote: post #141
999900000999 wrote: post #21

I dislike RTO for one simple reason . I'm not at work to make friends, I'm not at work to chit chat. I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last football game . I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for . Most of the time coming to the off…

I dislike RTO because none of that happens anymore. The economic landscape is too paranoid (despite positive macro indicators) for employees to enjoy work. People don't want to chit chat, just clock in clock out. Layoffs threat is ever present. Remote & odd-time zone meetings are still here. Can't turn off my computer after 5pm. In office benefits are limited. Mentoring, learning-seminars and after-work activities ar…

A lot of people actually despise living in major cities. I was born in one, a huge metropolis, and lived in it for the most of my life. For a long time I was forced to live there, because the jobs were there too.

In may ways, the pandemic was a blessing for me. Remote work allowed me to move to a small city, closer to a rural area. If depends solely on my desire, I will never again live in a major city.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#147

Post by nunez »

999900000999 wrote: post #21

I dislike RTO for one simple reason . I'm not at work to make friends, I'm not at work to chit chat. I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last football game . I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for . Most of the time coming to the off…

> If every single office job went remote, what's the point of a city like New York. Who's going to willingly pay $6,000 for an apartment, ride the trains for over an hour a day, if you can just sit at home in a much cheaper city .

Yeah, but that's the heart of the problem here. The suburbs that many flocked to when WFH became acceptable are largely subsidized by city income. Cities are largely funded by employers paying hefty taxes to operate within them. Non-negligible portions of municipal budgets are also funded by small businesses that cannot exist without people working centrally somewhere.

Until municipal governments figure out a different operating model, I don't think any major city can survive big companies pulling out en masse unless your desired end state looks like Detroit circa 2000.

> I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for .

What of the people whose jobs aren't WFH compatible? "They get what they get?"

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#148

Post by surgical_fire »

com2kid wrote: post #114
intended wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever thought of why? Just ‘magic’, is an open doorway for bias and unreliable memory to enter and influence the conversation. Is it perhaps that there are specific people, who are doing the ideation, or are particularly good at helping you think? Or is it anyone and everyone? If it’s anyone, then is it a social / biological quirk? Is it something else? For everyone reading, this is worth reflecting upon, if…

Don't overcomplicate things. Whiteboards are way better than even the best of online tools and drawing with a mouse. For that matter, post-it notes on a wall are better than JIRA. At one workplace everyone had glass table so they could draw on with markers. People could literally come up to your desk and you could work through problems together on one end of the table. The best online tools are garbage compared to ph…

> Don't overcomplicate things. Whiteboards are way better than even the best of online tools and drawing with a mouse.

I'll never understand this. All my whiteboard diagrams look like shit. My drawing skills suck, my writing is nearly illegible.

Most online tools have excellent diagram shapes, nice and customizable arrows, good templates, etc.

I can make nice diagrams much faster on any of those than in a real whiteboard. A lot less messy as well.

I also worked in a place where we could draw on desks. I fucking hated it, it was the worst possible place to brainstorm anything, and made the place very noisy because people were invited to have those discussions on desks, and it was an open office plan where others were trying to work.

It is small wonder that I became extremely more productive at home. I don't need to wear headphones all day long, meetings tend to be more focused (since people don't like sitting on online meetings as long), online tooling for communication ia top notch these days.

I can't think of a single upside of being in the office.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#149

Post by nunez »

SirMaster wrote: post #120
999900000999 wrote: post #21

I dislike RTO for one simple reason . I'm not at work to make friends, I'm not at work to chit chat. I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last football game . I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for . Most of the time coming to the off…

Then maybe you aren't a culture fit for that employer / office? My experience is just so different. I love the vibe and the camaraderie of my office. It makes it fun to work there. Just sitting at home working, never interacting with people in person sounds really dull and boring and cold to me. I had to do that in 2020 and I hated it. Productivity is nice, but IMO it's not all about productivity. As a worker I value…

I'm with you. WFH is insanely isolating, and interacting via Slack/Zoom doesn't cut it for me.

I hate that it's either full RTO or full WFH at so many places.

Re: JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate

#150

Post by linkjuice4all »

bko wrote: post #121
teddyh wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is extremely generous of you to assume that those who push for RTO have the company’s interest in mind.

Okay, so what's the point? Just to piss of employees and waste money on real-estate and snacks?

Organizations consist of many individuals with different motivations, so it's hard to ascribe a single reason to an individual or group.

Here are some of the real and assumed reasons that companies are pushing for this:

- They have accepted tax breaks or other financial benefits from cities tied to specific headcounts or jobs created

- They are locked into longer term leases or own the building outright and want to make use of their sunk costs

- They found that (on average?) remote employees are less productive

- They want to encourage employees to find another employer

- It's a control/showing-off thing

There seems to be a financial motivation behind this and apparently employee happiness/productivity doesn't appear to be part of it. I [anecdata warning] don't see employers mentioning any sort of commute benefit/subsidy for returning to the office nor do I see 'remote employment' touted as a benefit so these decisions are being made without any consideration for employees.

I guess pick from one of the above and figure out which way a company stands to benefit - there's your answer.

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