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I spent 18 years in the Linux console

eugene-andrienko.com

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Re: I spent 18 years in the Linux console

#141

Post by vkazanov »

pjmlp wrote: post #137
vkazanov wrote: post #9

While I have been using Linux since 1996 or so, and do have quite an opinionated workflow, I never could agree with this kind of ultraconservative approach to things. History never stops. Things change. Linux changes. Not every day, not every month, but every couple of years something has to go. And that's ok.

Same here, I do think UNIX did some stuff right, but also did lots of stuff wrong (otherwise The UNIX-HATERS Handbook wouldn't even be a thing), and while the command line is useful for some tasks (which can also be done on a scripting language REPL), it is hardly something to settle life on. We already have enough UNIX clones, and moved away from TUIs 40 years ago for a reason.

Yes, I have a personal unix haters list as well. And I also love the whole tech subculture to death.

Funnily enough, init.rc used to be on the top of it, as well as all the numerous process/job management gotchas. Systemd + control groups = step forward. Plan9-style fuse-based systems = step forward. Kernel data structures exposed as files = step forward. And so on.

CLI utils will probably have their place like forever, TUIs as well, with the main benefit being the ease of development and staying in the CLI context.

Re: I spent 18 years in the Linux console

#143

Post by kombine »

da_chicken wrote: post #117
kombine wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. At some point in the past Unix was also new. There is a time for stability, but also time for changes. In fact, the most popular distributions such as Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora or Arch largely operate on the principles that have not changed since the 90s. There is definitely a space to do things better now. I'm personally excited about GNU Guix, I think is one of the most innovative distributions, just on the b…

> They use a single programming language to implement all aspects of the OS: configuration, system services, packaging. I can understand the appeal of the idea, but this feels like a significant mistake. It would be like an automaker saying, "We are using exclusively 17 mm bolts for fasteners." Sure, it saves you time with finding a wrench. But I can't begin to imagine the number of compromises or additional complexi…

> But I can't begin to imagine the number of compromises or additional complexities you introduce this way.

So can you be more specific about the kind of compromises you have in mind and whether they are currently affecting Guix?

Re: I spent 18 years in the Linux console

#144

Post by masfoobar »

Great read... thanks!

"And given the lack of access to the Internet, I couldn’t figure out what else to do with Linux.."

The 'good old days' of learning a computer without the internet. You had books or, in my case, my dads university books... oh and I had Microsoft Encarta. LOL.

While I am responsible avoiding the distractions of the internet, I still prefer disconnect from the internet at times. Sure, it has its powers with quick searching for answers but when you learn by doing (rather than copying/pasting) it releases great vibes to the mind - and what you learn sticks!

I can picture teenagers today trying to learn but end up doom-scrolling on tiktok or other... or distracted by other "content" that is easily accessibly than ever. A Windows 3.1 or 95 computer was as good to whats installed.

Todays computers have the same thing, but everything else the internet throws at you. Its easy to lose track, even for people in their 40s today.

Re: I spent 18 years in the Linux console

#145

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

"I still don't understand where idea "if you solving a problem and decide to use regular expressions, then now you have two problems" came from."

Nor do I. I have surmised it arose from people trying to use RE in non-systems programming languages. As opposed to people writing console utilities in a systems programming language or using such utilities to administer a UNIX-like OS.

Re: I spent 18 years in the Linux console

#146

Post by dTal »

da_chicken wrote: post #117
kombine wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. At some point in the past Unix was also new. There is a time for stability, but also time for changes. In fact, the most popular distributions such as Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora or Arch largely operate on the principles that have not changed since the 90s. There is definitely a space to do things better now. I'm personally excited about GNU Guix, I think is one of the most innovative distributions, just on the b…

> They use a single programming language to implement all aspects of the OS: configuration, system services, packaging. I can understand the appeal of the idea, but this feels like a significant mistake. It would be like an automaker saying, "We are using exclusively 17 mm bolts for fasteners." Sure, it saves you time with finding a wrench. But I can't begin to imagine the number of compromises or additional complexi…

I would say that software is meant to be chopped up and glued together much more flexibly than the parts of a car. It is more like saying "all LEGO pieces have studs 5mm apart center to center".

Re: I spent 18 years in the Linux console

#147

Post by [deleted] »

dTal wrote: post #146
da_chicken wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They use a single programming language to implement all aspects of the OS: configuration, system services, packaging. I can understand the appeal of the idea, but this feels like a significant mistake. It would be like an automaker saying, "We are using exclusively 17 mm bolts for fasteners." Sure, it saves you time with finding a wrench. But I can't begin to imagine the number of compromises or additional complexi…

I would say that software is meant to be chopped up and glued together much more flexibly than the parts of a car. It is more like saying "all LEGO pieces have studs 5mm apart center to center".

[deleted]

Re: I spent 18 years in the Linux console

#148

Post by da_chicken »

blueflow wrote: post #135
da_chicken wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They use a single programming language to implement all aspects of the OS: configuration, system services, packaging. I can understand the appeal of the idea, but this feels like a significant mistake. It would be like an automaker saying, "We are using exclusively 17 mm bolts for fasteners." Sure, it saves you time with finding a wrench. But I can't begin to imagine the number of compromises or additional complexi…

> "We are using exclusively 17 mm bolts for fasteners." Sure, it saves you time with finding a wrench. But I can't begin to imagine the number of compromises or additional complexities you introduce this way. I spend 10 hrs a week under cars, and i say, hell yeah! I want this! For all cars!

You want to use 17 mm bolts to hold your fuel cap on? And your wiper blades? And your rear view mirror?

Some standardization is a great idea, but including the word "all" is what makes it academic and impractical. And if you're not going to be absolutist about it, then you're just using marketspeak.

Re: I spent 18 years in the Linux console

#149

Post by blueflow »

da_chicken wrote: post #148
blueflow wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We are using exclusively 17 mm bolts for fasteners." Sure, it saves you time with finding a wrench. But I can't begin to imagine the number of compromises or additional complexities you introduce this way. I spend 10 hrs a week under cars, and i say, hell yeah! I want this! For all cars!

You want to use 17 mm bolts to hold your fuel cap on? And your wiper blades? And your rear view mirror? Some standardization is a great idea, but including the word "all" is what makes it academic and impractical. And if you're not going to be absolutist about it, then you're just using marketspeak.

Yes, i do! At least that all of their heads are 17, IMHO a pretty good and already common size.

Re: I spent 18 years in the Linux console

#150

Post by albrewer »

da_chicken wrote: post #117
kombine wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. At some point in the past Unix was also new. There is a time for stability, but also time for changes. In fact, the most popular distributions such as Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora or Arch largely operate on the principles that have not changed since the 90s. There is definitely a space to do things better now. I'm personally excited about GNU Guix, I think is one of the most innovative distributions, just on the b…

> They use a single programming language to implement all aspects of the OS: configuration, system services, packaging. I can understand the appeal of the idea, but this feels like a significant mistake. It would be like an automaker saying, "We are using exclusively 17 mm bolts for fasteners." Sure, it saves you time with finding a wrench. But I can't begin to imagine the number of compromises or additional complexi…

Not sure if you chose 17mm on purpose but the tolerances on most sockets and wrenches make 17mm and SAE 11/16" sizes nearly interchangeable.
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