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Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

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Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#141

Post by Almondsetat »

bjackman wrote: post #28

I find it pretty cool how the spread of Christianity can be tracked so finely that a 50 update in earliest arrival time is exciting! I started listening to a podcast called "the history of the early church" to learn a bit more about that but unfortunately I think the target audience was Christians interested in theology rather than nerds interested in history. Recommendations for books etc are welcome!

I mean, wouldn't you find it strange if historians from the year 4000 believed the sexual revolution of 1968 happened in 2018? Quite a discrepancy "only" 50 years

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#142

Post by mensetmanusman »

dragonwriter wrote: post #131
wolfhelius wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a long drive where I listened to The Great Courses, which had a set on early Christianity. I think the professor was from Notre Dame. The early church was wrestling with polytheism (is the OT god seemed really different from the NT god) and it eventually had to get resolved by the Council at Nicaea at Constantine's behest.

Note that to non-Christian monotheists, the Christian resolution of that problem is often seen as polytheism with circumlocution.

This arises from a confusion of multiplication 1x1x1 with addition 1+1+1 in the abstraction of facets of truth.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#143

Post by mensetmanusman »

kibwen wrote: post #132
JackFr wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As Mary asked Jesus to perform the miracle at the wedding at Cana, for the said of her friend, we too are called to pray to ask Mary to intercede for us for our intentions.

Yes, with "saint" I wasn't even trying to invoke a discussion involving Mary at all, because in practice she's so far above the saints that to equate them feels like heresy (and might literally be heresy in some contexts; hyperdulia vs. dulia and all). In practice the absolute adulation of Mary is such that she nearly feels like the fourth member of the trinity.

Who judges what appears to happen in practice?

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#144

Post by giraffe_lady »

throw0101c wrote: post #139
giraffe_lady wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but most lay people from either branch couldn't tell you the practical consequences of this. It's widely known & considered important because it's a remaining theological justification for the schism, not the other way around.

An interesting take on the dilemma between the two 'sides': > You see the problem. If you include the filioque, you fight the Arians in the West while inadvertently supporting the Sabellians in the East. But if you exclude it, you fight the Sabellians while inadvertently supporting the Arians. At its heart, the filioque is really a linguistic debate, not a theological one. * https://old.reddit.com/r/Catholicism/comme…

I don't know either. To me (an orthodox christian) the filioque seems like a post hoc justification for a schism that was already well underway if not inevitable. By 1054 what became the two churches had already clearly differentiated religious traditions, local saints, and liturgical practices with very little interchange between them, not to mention language, governance, and secular culture.

I have heard some fairly convincing (to a lay person) discussion between orthodox and catholic scholars that the filioque is potentially resolvable as a linguistic problem yes. But it's not worth really pursuing without a solution for the bigger issue of papal primacy. I don't know anyone who claims to have a viable path to reconciliation there. Plus, you know, the thousand years of mutual distrust and enmity.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#145

Post by mensetmanusman »

wslh wrote: post #134
bjackman wrote: post #28

I find it pretty cool how the spread of Christianity can be tracked so finely that a 50 update in earliest arrival time is exciting! I started listening to a podcast called "the history of the early church" to learn a bit more about that but unfortunately I think the target audience was Christians interested in theology rather than nerds interested in history. Recommendations for books etc are welcome!

I think one of the oldest historical mentions of Jesus is by Josephus [1][2]. There is, however, scholarly discussion about whether parts of his references to Jesus were altered by later Christian scribes [3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus [3] https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=jose...

The Didache predates Josephus.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#146

Post by harimau777 »

throaway2501 wrote: post #64
kamikazeturtles wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did the fact that Christians from Western Europe looted Constantinople in 1200 play a role in the Eastern Roman Empire's decision to stop identifying themselves as part of the Catholic Church, or were there already deep theological and political divides?

Catholic means universal, so both present themselves as the original and true church, with the head either in Rome or Constantinople/Pentarchy. The actual break of communion comes from 1054 but really began much earlier.

Even in protestant churches like the Presbyterians and the Methodists you will hear references to the "Catholic Church" where it refers to the universal church that is inclusive all all believers regardless of denomination. For example in shows up in the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#147

Post by [deleted] »

kibwen wrote: post #86
papandada wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard anyone say the early church wrestled with polytheism. Maybe that's my bias nestled in Christian circles of not using that word, in favour of something more like "the nature of the triune Godhead", etc.

Even today plenty of Christian sects refuse to recognize the council of Nicaea's interpretation of the trinity, including the Mormons and the Jehovah's witnesses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism (Whether or not any of these flirt with polytheism is up for debate.) Meanwhile, the Catholic church's own profusion of saints whom you are supposed to beseech for specific blessings is dangerously close to a…

[deleted]

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#148

Post by cogman10 »

ordinaryradical wrote: post #121
cogman10 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the more interesting pieces of evidence in the Bible. The Roman census that required every family go back to their hometown did not happen (why would it?). Romans kept very good records of censuses and such an event would be well covered. So why does the Bible have this story? The best guess is that Jesus was well known to have come from Nazareth. Yet the older messianic texts say the Messiah would be from Bet…

Before you tie yourself in this knot it might be useful just to look and see if there was a Roman census in that time period: "When I administered my thirteenth consulate (2 B.C.E.), the senate and Equestrian order and Roman people all called me father of the country, and voted that the same be inscribed in the vestibule of my temple"[0] [0] http://classics.mit.edu/Augustus/deeds.html

Oh, I'm sorry I must not have been super clear.

That Rome did censuses and kept detailed records of the censuses is not in dispute. The thing that never happened is people making long trips to the ancestral lands.

The entire point of a census is to get an accurate population count for reasons of taxation and public spending. People uprooting to go to grandpa's home to be counted messes with that count. It's counter productive. Rome would never have required this and in fact would have tried to restrict travel during the census because they wanted an accurate population count.

The much more likely explanation is the author of Luke needed Jesus to be born in Bethlehem, which was problematic because Jesus was well known to be from Nazareth.

Here's a good article detailing those problems:

https://bam.sites.uiowa.edu/faq/can-you-explain-problem-cens...

I should note, this is not a controversial take.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#149

Post by Mistletoe »

mistrial9 wrote: post #88
emmelaich wrote: post #83

Related, for those interested in the history of religions and Christianity: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/book-review-the-rise-of-chr...

> a lot of male cult members join because the cult has hot girls. This seems to have been a big factor in the spread of early Christianity as well. well, that explains it then

As someone that went to church for that reason as a child I can tell you some things never change.

Re: Silver amulet is the oldest evidence of Christianity north of the Alps

#150

Post by xdennis »

ithkuil wrote: post #60
Hilift wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the more interesting developments occurred after the fall of the western Roman empire. The eastern empire (Constantinople) had frequent arguments and disputes with the west over nearly everything, including Christianity. The eastern Orthodox church refers to itself as the "Catholic Church" in internal documents. After the west fell in 476, they continued to present themselves as "the" Catholic church, which w…

In fact the very word catholic derives from the Greek words kata and holos

Additionally, it's part of the credo:

> [We believe] in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church."

In Latin:

> Et unam sanctam catholicam et apostolicam Ecclesiam.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Marks_of_the_Church

Catholic just means universal.

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