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"Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

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Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#141

Post by brokenmachine »

henryfjordan wrote: post #68
daxfohl wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, right, the CAD thing was sketchier. IIRC there wasn't any feature of OpenGL/DirectX that was nerfed, it was just an agreement with CAD companies to reject the GPUs that didn't have the workstation bit fused. For this performance nerf, IDK, seems fine to me. Software companies do this all the time. Same piece of software but you have to pay to unlock features. I don't see why hardware should be any different. Gran…

That sounds like a classic Anti-trust suit waiting to happen. CAD company and NVIDIA colluding to drive sales exclusively to each other. That's illegal and exploitative.

Solution is for NVIDIA to buy the CAD company, then everything is legal.

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#142

Post by brokenmachine »

tester756 wrote: post #135
Xymist wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They just shouldn't do that. If they can afford to sell the Ferrari for $20k, they should do so. To everyone who wants one, for whatever reason.

So, are you going to tell your boss to decrease your salary to the level where it covers just your basic needs and no more?

That is precisely what would happen if there was infinite competition for job openings.

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#143

Post by henryfjordan »

brokenmachine wrote: post #141
henryfjordan wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a classic Anti-trust suit waiting to happen. CAD company and NVIDIA colluding to drive sales exclusively to each other. That's illegal and exploitative.

Solution is for NVIDIA to buy the CAD company, then everything is legal.

Actually probably not, you can't use your position in one market to benefit your position in another. But antitrust law is hardly enforced so yeah probably.

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#144

Post by lofaszvanitt »

modeless wrote: post #21

This is why Nvidia needs competition. I love the performance of their hardware and the quality of their drivers, but I don't love being their customer. They have a long, long history of price discrimination using techniques like this. Back in the day it was "workstation" graphics for CAD programs that they would nerf for consumer cards by downgrading various features of OpenGL. Different markets, same techniques. It'…

It's a protected company...

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#145

Post by chrsw »

michaelt wrote: post #69
chrsw wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel didn't have a software stack moat.

In 2000 Intel had a huge software moat: Microsoft Windows, and the large install base of x86-only software. Rich webapps hadn't been invented. Smartphones? If you're lucky your flip phone might have a colour screen. If you've got money to burn, you can insert a PCMCIA card into your Compaq iPAQ and try out this new "802.11b" thing. Java was... being Java. Almost all the software out there - especially if it had a GUI…

>In 2000 Intel had a huge software moat

"had". That's what helped prop up their monopoly but it didn't last. These days if can't run your software on another architecture, like ARM, you can run at least on AMD. AMD can basically run the same software as Intel. This isn't the situation for NVIDIA vs everyone else, so far.

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#147

Post by m463 »

creato wrote: post #52

NVIDIA is obviously not above market segmentation via dubious means (see: driver limitations for consumer GPUs), but I think binning due to silicon defects is a more likely explanation in this case. Some 4090s have this extra fp16 -> fp32 ALU disabled because it's defective on that chip. Other 4090s have it disabled because it failed as an Ada 6000 for some other reason, but NVIDIA didn't want to make a 4095 SKU to s…

I think this is just like intel does.

Runs fast? i9. slower? i7. missing cores? i5 slowest? i3

perfect chips probably not only have all the cores working, they also run at low voltages so don't get as hot.

I wonder if they can figure out what parts of the chip run at what speeds, and disable the ones that run slow/hot

I'm pretty sure gpus are overclocked by vendors, so there must be some sort of binning either by the vendors or they buy binned parts. I'll bet if parts could go faster, you would have an ASUS/MSI/etc 4090-2x-max-$$$$

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/glossary-binning-defini...

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#148

Post by Arrath »

m463 wrote: post #147
creato wrote: post #52

NVIDIA is obviously not above market segmentation via dubious means (see: driver limitations for consumer GPUs), but I think binning due to silicon defects is a more likely explanation in this case. Some 4090s have this extra fp16 -> fp32 ALU disabled because it's defective on that chip. Other 4090s have it disabled because it failed as an Ada 6000 for some other reason, but NVIDIA didn't want to make a 4095 SKU to s…

I think this is just like intel does. Runs fast? i9. slower? i7. missing cores? i5 slowest? i3 perfect chips probably not only have all the cores working, they also run at low voltages so don't get as hot. I wonder if they can figure out what parts of the chip run at what speeds, and disable the ones that run slow/hot I'm pretty sure gpus are overclocked by vendors, so there must be some sort of binning either by the…

I recall reading before that as yields improved over process maturation Intel has ended up binning faster passing chips as lower SKUs just to meet demand.

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#149

Post by sangnoir »

tgsovlerkhgsel wrote: post #94
cosmic_cheese wrote: post #45

Between EVGA getting out of the Nvidia card business, Nvidia continuing to be problematic under Linux (even if that’s improving), all the nonsense with the new power connector, and the company’s general sliminess, I’m increasingly leaning towards an AMD (or potentially Intel) card for my next tower upgrade. AMD and Intel might only be competing in the entry-to-midrange market sector but my needs aren’t likely to exce…

AMD has inexplicably decided not to invest in software. Just like car manufacturers don't realize that a shitty infotainment system can keep people from buying the $100k car, AMD doesn't seem to realize that people aren't buying a GPU for ML if their ML framework doesn't run on it... And this goes down to consumer drivers too. I've sworn to myself that I'm not buying AMD for my next laptop, after endless instability…

> AMD has inexplicably decided not to invest in software

Perhaps they were distracted by dismantling Intel's CPU hegemony? I wouldn't fault them for that, fighting 2 Goliaths simultaneously isn't a sound strategy.

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#150

Post by monocasa »

creato wrote: post #52

NVIDIA is obviously not above market segmentation via dubious means (see: driver limitations for consumer GPUs), but I think binning due to silicon defects is a more likely explanation in this case. Some 4090s have this extra fp16 -> fp32 ALU disabled because it's defective on that chip. Other 4090s have it disabled because it failed as an Ada 6000 for some other reason, but NVIDIA didn't want to make a 4095 SKU to s…

I'm not sure that it's completed as a separate fp16 ALU. There's cute ways to share logic between a dual fp16 alu and a single fp32 ALU such that it's really just one ALU with those being different ops.
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