How do I pay the publisher of a web page? • Hacker News Board

Re: How do I pay the publisher of a web page?

#141

Post by freeone3000 » Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 8:05 PM UTC

noch wrote: post #140

freeone3000 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every transfer costs money. Every swap costs money. I now have to choose which L2 provider to trust implicitly, with no recourse on failure. And at the end of it, I still have internet points, instead of something that can pay rent or buy food.

> Every transfer costs money. Yes, all real world payments, from credit cards, to bank transfers have transaction fees. Depending on where you are in the world, even cash payments can include taxes per transaction. > Every swap costs money. Yes, currency conversion in real life includes fees. > I now have to choose which L2 provider to trust implicitly, with no recourse on failure. No, the whole point of a rollup is…

Look, if there’s no reasonable way to transfer in bitcoin and transfer out USD there’s no point to any of it. Mtgox is closed, binance is closed, quadriga is closed, and kraken isn’t looking terribly good either. Stripe stopped accepting, visa stopped accepting, it’s … coinbase?

Re: How do I pay the publisher of a web page?

#142

Post by noch » Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 9:52 PM UTC

freeone3000 wrote: post #141

noch wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Every transfer costs money. Yes, all real world payments, from credit cards, to bank transfers have transaction fees. Depending on where you are in the world, even cash payments can include taxes per transaction. > Every swap costs money. Yes, currency conversion in real life includes fees. > I now have to choose which L2 provider to trust implicitly, with no recourse on failure. No, the whole point of a rollup is…

Look, if there’s no reasonable way to transfer in bitcoin and transfer out USD there’s no point to any of it. Mtgox is closed, binance is closed, quadriga is closed, and kraken isn’t looking terribly good either. Stripe stopped accepting, visa stopped accepting, it’s … coinbase?

> Look, if there’s no reasonable way to transfer in bitcoin and transfer out USD there’s no point to any of it.

In reality, there are billions of Dollars, Euros, Pounds, AUD, and other currencies moving in and out of crypto daily via on/off-ramps. Bitcoin and Ether ETFs exist and are well capitalized and widely used. You claim "Binance is closed" yet I'm quite sure I used it this week. I also use Kraken quite happily to send money to my bank account. Coinbase of course is thriving.

If you transact in size, simply hold USDC[^1] and open an account with Circle[^2].

> Stripe stopped accepting

Your information is outdated: https://docs.stripe.com/crypto/onramp

> Mtgox is closed

Have you used or looked into crypto since MtGox? It's been quite some time since that affair. You'd probably be surprised to find how much utility there is if that was the last time you actually investigated crypto. There are also P2P options like Paxful, Telegram, or Binance P2P if you prefer.

Anyway, if you're fixated with the old guard of finance then any advancement in technology will necessarily have to meet incumbent institutions requirements, with all the problems I listed earlier in the thread. With a bit of effort, you could instead imagine an entirely digital internet economy with so-called crypto points. Even that alone would be step forward and a mere generation of users away from your landlord, a crypto user, accepting them as payment.

Reality, however is such that right now you can fund a debit card with crypto and buy coffee with no problems. [^0]

---

[^0]: https://gnosispay.com/, https://www.coinbase.com/card

[^1]: https://www.usdc.com/providers

[^2]: https://www.circle.com/usdc

Re: How do I pay the publisher of a web page?

#143

Post by Suppafly » Tue, Dec 10, 2024, 10:13 PM UTC

akimbostrawman wrote: post #138

Suppafly wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Honestly this is one of the main usecases of crypto, in my opinion. The problem is that crypto doesn't provide anything that non-crypto shouldn't wouldn't also provide in a cheaper and easier to implement way.

Please show me the this revolution non-crypto payment method that offers transferring currency/value: - worldwide - private - anonymous - no middle man - no censorship - costs 0.0X per transaction - take less than 10 minutes

Not all of those are necessary and not all of them are even necessarily desirable.

Re: How do I pay the publisher of a web page?

#144

Post by akimbostrawman » Wed, Dec 11, 2024, 8:02 AM UTC

Suppafly wrote: post #143

akimbostrawman wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please show me the this revolution non-crypto payment method that offers transferring currency/value: - worldwide - private - anonymous - no middle man - no censorship - costs 0.0X per transaction - take less than 10 minutes

Not all of those are necessary and not all of them are even necessarily desirable.

Disagree. They are exactly what makes them desirable and useful. If you don't think so consider yourself lucky or ignorant.

Re: How do I pay the publisher of a web page?

#145

Post by csumtin » Fri, Dec 13, 2024, 7:36 PM UTC

knorker wrote: post #87

csumtin wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think another problem with micropayments is competing with free is hard. Say you have the best lightning paywall with an amazing UX where it's super easy and automatic to pay a creator a few sats. Most people assume the problem is user's don't want to pay but it's actually publishers who won't put up micropayments on their content. Here's why: for a big publisher, adding a lightning paywall is a big risk which may…

> it's actually publishers who won't put up micropayments on their content Won't, or can't? Do you have a good article about how to set up a paywall or tip jar for small transactions, with a clear description of what percentage goes to middlemen and (mainly in the case of proof of work) how much externality cost it incurs? I would like to be able to pay $cents or even $dollar for instant access to an article, but onl…

Soz for the late reply. I think you kind of answered your own question. It's not can't, it's won't as you are willing to add tipping but not a paywall to your content :D

So for context, we built a lightning paywall(now defunct). All you had to do was add a single line of js to your site, as easy as Google analytics/ads. The cost was 0.01% of transaction. You could even move to self hosting and not pay us. Finally, we even built an "auto payer" so users could approve a site and auto pay a few cents with limits. Anyways, our experience is content publishers said they wanted to monetize their content but when it came down to it, were extremely reluctant to add a paywall and would maybe think of adding tipping.

Anyways I think our solution was great but no product market fit. I was especially proud how private the whole thing was but users didn't seem to really value that

Re: How do I pay the publisher of a web page?

#146

Post by knorker » Sat, Dec 14, 2024, 5:27 PM UTC

csumtin wrote: post #145

knorker wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's actually publishers who won't put up micropayments on their content Won't, or can't? Do you have a good article about how to set up a paywall or tip jar for small transactions, with a clear description of what percentage goes to middlemen and (mainly in the case of proof of work) how much externality cost it incurs? I would like to be able to pay $cents or even $dollar for instant access to an article, but onl…

Soz for the late reply. I think you kind of answered your own question. It's not can't, it's won't as you are willing to add tipping but not a paywall to your content :D So for context, we built a lightning paywall(now defunct). All you had to do was add a single line of js to your site, as easy as Google analytics/ads. The cost was 0.01% of transaction. You could even move to self hosting and not pay us. Finally, we…

> It's not can't, it's won't as you are willing to add tipping but not a paywall to your content

The "won't" is because of two reasons: 1) too high overhead, and 2) bootstrap problem. Nobody has the ability to pay with one click set up.

When I say "can't" I mean that they can't set up a payment system that everybody can use, and also doesn't have too high fees. Of course they can set up a method that nobody will use. They could set up a bitcoin paywall, and have huge waiting times, enormously expensive overhead, and no customers for the payment method.

> All you had to do was add a single line of js to your site, as easy as Google analytics/ads.

Super easy on the server side. Yay.

> The cost was 0.01% of transaction. You could even move to self hosting and not pay us.

Oh, neat. But you're missing a step in the explanation, I think. How did it work on the client side? Presumably:

    1. Clients need to create an account with you (lose 99% of people already)
    2a. Client needs to create a balance with you, e.g. by paying in $10 in one go, to spend this month. (lose further 99% of people); or
    2b. Client gets charged once a month for their total amount (probably better client acceptance)

For the server side to create an account, that's not a problem at all. If you had said that you had your software on 30 million users, payment set up and done, then I'd imagine more publishers would be willing to add a tip jar / alternative paywall.

But in any case, what are your card fees? I can't imagine this product had 0.01% end to end fees, given the hoops I have to jump through just to send money between my own bank accounts without paying fees.

And that's not even tackling currency exchange.

Some (but definitely not all) cryptocurrencies may fare better in the fees department, but not only does that have its own sets of problems (e.g. legal and PR), most people would still need to acquire a balance.

> Anyways I think our solution was great but no product market fit.

It does sound great. But also doesn't sound like it solved the hard problem.

When you pitched this to publishers, how many users could you say were ready to send them money today, using installed extensions and pre-filled wallets?

Maybe the digital euro will help, here.