When I first started hosting servers/services for customers I was using EC2 and Rackspace, then I discovered Linode and was happy it was so much cheaper with apparently no downside. After the first couple of interactions with support I started to relax. Then I discovered OVH, same story. I haven't needed the support yet though.
Kubernetes on Hetzner: cutting my infra bill by 75%
141–150 of 229 posts
Re: Kubernetes on Hetzner: cutting my infra bill by 75%
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
2% of total worldwide electricity use in 2022 is a shit load of electricity and emissions. Your argument is the same as those who argue "our country shouldn't care about emissions when China is the biggest emitter". If you dive into a detailed breakdown of emissions you'll find that it's a complex hierarchy of categories. You can't just fix "all of transport" or treat it like a "low hanging fruit", just look at how m…
> our country shouldn't care about emissions when China is the biggest emitter To be fair, until China does something about their emissions, the rest of us are just pissing in the ocean.
Don't shit in your own back yard, no matter what other people like to do.
Re: Kubernetes on Hetzner: cutting my infra bill by 75%
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seems to be a US thing, maybe their peering partners are forcing them to raise prices, the German DC still stells the 20TB bandwidth https://www.hetzner.com/cloud/ , but US is an order of magnitude less for the same price :/
I don't see how traffic in Ashburn is more expensive than Frankfurt and Amsterdam. It's the sort of place where people say Transit is cheaper than paid peering. (For eyeball networks at least). I think carrying traffic from Europe for some images and videos might make sense financially. But there's always bulk CDN's
> I don't see how traffic in Ashburn is more expensive than Frankfurt and Amsterdam.
The vast majority of Hetzner's traffic in europe (and tbh, anyone's traffic) is free peering. Telekom is the one major exception.
Re: Kubernetes on Hetzner: cutting my infra bill by 75%
#144As far as I see, no one is mentioning sustainability AKA environmental impact or 'green hosting' here. Don't you care about that? I believe that Hetzner data centers in Europe (Germany, Finland) are powered by green energy, but not the locations in US.
> I believe that Hetzner data centers in Europe (Germany, Finland) are powered by green energy, but not the locations in US. Green lignite.
While fans of nuclear energy like to meme about the German power grid, Hetzner is — in so far as anyone with a grid connection can be — powered by 100% green wind and hydro energy.
You can see the paperwork here:
- https://cdn.hetzner.com/assets/Uploads/oekostrom-zertifikat-...
- https://cdn.hetzner.com/assets/Oomi-sertifikaatti-tuuli+vesi...
Re: Kubernetes on Hetzner: cutting my infra bill by 75%
#145As far as I see, no one is mentioning sustainability AKA environmental impact or 'green hosting' here. Don't you care about that? I believe that Hetzner data centers in Europe (Germany, Finland) are powered by green energy, but not the locations in US.
They probably just use the local power grid. You can use ElectricityMaps to look up the average carbon intensity per kWh of those grids https://app.electricitymaps.com/
You can choose which electricity company provides the amount of power to the grid that you're using. While you don't get "your" electricity, overall you can still affect the carbon balance of the electricity that's produced in your name.
Hetzner is using 100% green hydro and wind power for that, which is as sustainable as any grid-connected company can be.
Re: Kubernetes on Hetzner: cutting my infra bill by 75%
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I'd put it at 2-4 months of undistracted skilled engineering time. How much is that worth to your company/customer vs a higher monthly bill for the next 5 years? As a consultancy company, you want to sell that. As a customer, I don't see how that's worth it at all, unless I expect a 10k/month AWS bill. xkcd comes to mind: https://xkcd.com/1319/
> As a consultancy company, you want to sell that. As a customer, I don't see how that's worth it at all. Well I do rather agree, but as a consultancy I'm biased. But let's do some math. Say it's 4 months (because who has uninterrupted time), a senior rate of $1000/day. 20 days a month, so 80 days, is an $80k outlay. That's assuming you can get the skills (because AWS et al like to hire these kinds of engineers). Say…
this assumes there are no devops/consulting cost to setup something with AWS. My experience is that "the aws way of doing XYZ" is almost as complicated as doing it the non-AWS-way.
On top of that: the non-AWS-way is much more portable across hosting providers, so you decrease your business risks considerably.
Re: Kubernetes on Hetzner: cutting my infra bill by 75%
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
2% of total worldwide electricity use in 2022 is a shit load of electricity and emissions. Your argument is the same as those who argue "our country shouldn't care about emissions when China is the biggest emitter". If you dive into a detailed breakdown of emissions you'll find that it's a complex hierarchy of categories. You can't just fix "all of transport" or treat it like a "low hanging fruit", just look at how m…
> our country shouldn't care about emissions when China is the biggest emitter To be fair, until China does something about their emissions, the rest of us are just pissing in the ocean.
Eh, per capita China has lower emissions than the US whilst manufacturing and exporting significantly more.
Everything is intertwined and tightly coupled, such simple statements are rarely accurate.
Re: Kubernetes on Hetzner: cutting my infra bill by 75%
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
> As a consultancy company, you want to sell that. As a customer, I don't see how that's worth it at all. Well I do rather agree, but as a consultancy I'm biased. But let's do some math. Say it's 4 months (because who has uninterrupted time), a senior rate of $1000/day. 20 days a month, so 80 days, is an $80k outlay. That's assuming you can get the skills (because AWS et al like to hire these kinds of engineers). Say…
this assumes there are no devops/consulting cost to setup something with AWS. My experience is that "the aws way of doing XYZ" is almost as complicated as doing it the non-AWS-way. On top of that: the non-AWS-way is much more portable across hosting providers, so you decrease your business risks considerably.
I wholeheartedly agree, I'm trying to be generous as I know I have a bias here.
I think the AWS way made clear sense in the days before the current generation of tooling existed, when we were SSH-ing into our snowflake servers (for example). But now we have tools like Kubernetes/Nomad/OpenShift/etc/etc, the logic just doesn't seem to add up any more.
The main argument against it is generally of the form, "Yes, but we don't want to hire for non-cloud/bare-metal". Which is why I think a consultancy provides a good middle ground here – trading off cost savings against business factors.
Re: Kubernetes on Hetzner: cutting my infra bill by 75%
#149As far as I see, no one is mentioning sustainability AKA environmental impact or 'green hosting' here. Don't you care about that? I believe that Hetzner data centers in Europe (Germany, Finland) are powered by green energy, but not the locations in US.
They probably just use the local power grid. You can use ElectricityMaps to look up the average carbon intensity per kWh of those grids https://app.electricitymaps.com/
> They probably just use the local power grid
A lot of EU datacenter providers specifically pick green electricity providers/sources, and pride themselves on it, and use it in advertising their sustainability.
Scaleway in particular are 100% no-CO2 (they have it easy, most of their DCs are in France where it's easy to be fully nuclear+renewable). Hetzner are the same.
Re: Kubernetes on Hetzner: cutting my infra bill by 75%
#150This is an interesting writeup, but I feel like it's missing a description of the cluster and the workload that's running on it. How many nodes are there, how much traffic does it receive, what are the uptime and latency requirements? And what's the absolute cost savings? Saving 75% of $100K/mo is very different from saving 75% of $100/mo.
In my experience noone bothers unless they are using GPUs or they are already at 100k/mo.
I do think 100k/mo is the tipping point actually, that is $1.2M/yr.
It costs around $400k/yr in engineering salaries to reasonably support a sophisticated bare metal deployment (though such people can generally do that AND provide a lot of value elsewhere in the business, so really it's actual cost is lower than this) and about $100k/yr in DC commitments, HW amortisation, and BW roughly. So you save around $700k a year which is great but the benefit becomes much greater when your equiv cloud spend is even bigger than that.