Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Beekeepers halt honey awards over fraud in global supply chain

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 241 posts

Re: Beekeepers halt honey awards over fraud in global supply chain

#141

Post by crazygringo »

fsckboy wrote: post #100
crazygringo wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> honey is just sugar syrup That's factually incorrect. First of all, obviously it has tons of extra flavor, which indicates a whole range of additional chemical compounds. > But that's what the honey cult is, homeopathic. Honey has scientifically proven antibiotic properties [1]. > adulterated honey is difficult to detect I don't know what you mean by "difficult", but it can certainly be detected [2]. And it can be…

when people are sloppy with language, they're probably sloppy with the science too. > But it does have a lot of additional chemical compounds in it if a jar of honey had one sloughed off cell from the colon of a honeybee, it would have "a lot of additional chemical compounds in it" because there are a lot of chemical compounds in a single cell. As a percentage of a jar of honey it's trace amounts. Govt standards for…

> As a percentage of a jar of honey it's trace amounts.

Percentages don't matter -- vitamins and minerals are trace amounts but essential for our health. Literally everything beneficial for our nutrition that isn't a macronutrient (carb/fat/protein) or bulk (water/fiber/etc.) is present in "trace amounts" when expressed as percentages of mass.

Honey is very clearly not "just sugar syrup", because the rest of the stuff clearly has meaningful effects such as antibiotic properties. Turns out "trace amounts" can do that, so you shouldn't dismiss them out of hand.

You're simply taking way too extreme of a position. I don't know about "honey cults" as you call them, but you're being equally unscientific in denying any meaningful difference whatsoever from sugar syrup.

Re: Beekeepers halt honey awards over fraud in global supply chain

#142

Post by alright2565 »

Etheryte wrote: post #123
jart wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But all the honey labels say the only ingredient is honey. We've always been able to assume that with things like jams, or any other food, when manufacturers adulterate it with things like corn syrup, or even mild poisons, they proudly say so on the label. To not do so is fraud. How can people just claim that an entire industry is committing fraud??? Even this article doesn't mention anything about proof, just suspic…

If you find this hard to believe, I recommend reading this Forbes article [0] which gives some pretty stark numbers. I've included a few select quotes below: > According to the sampling and monitoring work carried out by the Brussels-based body, almost 50% of the honey from non-European countries is cut with sugar syrups made from rice, wheat or sugar beet. > All the 10 honeys entered via the United Kingdom were mark…

fyi, "forbes.com/sites" is just some blogging platform.

In this case, it's mostly right, but the original source is https://food.ec.europa.eu/food-safety/eu-agri-food-fraud-net...

Re: Beekeepers halt honey awards over fraud in global supply chain

#143

Post by weitendorf »

liontwist wrote: post #136
Etheryte wrote: post #10

Here's a very straightforward guide to buying honey. If you see honey at a supermarket, no you don't, that's sugar syrup. If you see honey online, no you don't, that's sugar syrup. If you find an old dude with a small stand and a bunch of (most likely unlabelled) jars who only accepts cash, that's where you get real honey.

The "down to earth local grower" is a form of marketing that appeals to you. It's not a guarantee of quality, and probably more variable. Many vendors at farmer's markets just buy and relabel stuff, because producing goods efficiently enough to make a profit is actually hard.

This is true but there are varying degrees of “buying and relabeling” stuff. At its worst yes they could be going to a wholesaler or supermarket or restaurant supply store and just reselling those goods.

What I suspect is more common and isn’t as bad is that someone operates as a consumer brand/storefront for several small scale local farms. Given the variety of produce sold at so many of the farmers’ markets stalls in CA, and that most of it does indeed seem artisanal (ie not the kind you’d see in a grocery store), locally growable, and in-season I’m pretty sure this is commonplace.

There’s just no way a “down to earth local grower” could farm 15+ different kinds of crops at the scale required to operate one or more farmer’s market stalls multiple days a week, and operate the stalls. You’d need a big operation for that to not be a logistical nightmare. That said, if a vendor is just selling one or two things that keep well (like honey) it seems totally feasible that they’re truly a “down to earth local grower” although that also means they’re “possibly a complete amateur/fraud”

Re: Beekeepers halt honey awards over fraud in global supply chain

#144

Post by dreamcompiler »

crazygringo wrote: post #94
fsckboy wrote: post #83

the reason that adulterated honey is difficult to detect is that honey is just sugar syrup, and if you add more sugar syrup you'll get more sugar syrup than you started with. the mistaken belief is that there is something special about natural honey. people: it's sugar syrup, it'll give you diabetes as fast as a truckload of mountain dew. Now, I don't believe in homeopathy, perhaps you do. But that's what the honey c…

> honey is just sugar syrup That's factually incorrect. First of all, obviously it has tons of extra flavor, which indicates a whole range of additional chemical compounds. > But that's what the honey cult is, homeopathic. Honey has scientifically proven antibiotic properties [1]. > adulterated honey is difficult to detect I don't know what you mean by "difficult", but it can certainly be detected [2]. And it can be…

> Honey has scientifically proven antibiotic properties

Topical antibiotic properties. Eating honey won't cure anything.

Re: Beekeepers halt honey awards over fraud in global supply chain

#145

Post by dreamcompiler »

nextaccountic wrote: post #116
jart wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But all the honey labels say the only ingredient is honey. We've always been able to assume that with things like jams, or any other food, when manufacturers adulterate it with things like corn syrup, or even mild poisons, they proudly say so on the label. To not do so is fraud. How can people just claim that an entire industry is committing fraud??? Even this article doesn't mention anything about proof, just suspic…

Note this also happens with olive oil https://www.europol.europa.eu/media-press/newsroom/news/11-o... https://www.oliveoiltimes.com/business/europe/top-italian-po...

To a first approximation it's accurate to assume any imported olive oil on a grocery store shelf in the US is fraudulent. The only kind I buy now is 100% grown in California and certified by the California Olive Oil Council. And it is very expensive.

Re: Beekeepers halt honey awards over fraud in global supply chain

#146

Post by mmooss »

bluGill wrote: post #130
mmooss wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have evidence of that? Things do change, and sometimes for the worse. PE squeezing hospitals, nursing homes, and rent is a new thing. Look at rents - the inflation of them is not something that happened in the past.

The exact thing in question might be slightly different, but nothing is new. In the case of rents, the evil landlord raising rents and kicking people out is a trope you see in 1910s fiction. (probably before that, but I haven't personally read much fiction older than about 1910)

> The exact thing in question might be slightly different, but nothing is new.

I just don't see a reason to believe that. I've seen things change dramatically in my lifetime.

Re: Beekeepers halt honey awards over fraud in global supply chain

#147

Post by carbocation »

maltyr wrote: post #132
colechristensen wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A 90s percent of honey is fructose, glucose, and water. A very high 90s percent of corn syrup is fructose, glucose, and water. Getting the ratios the same is trivial. There is nothing magical about fructose or glucose from different sources, they’re exactly the same simple molecule. If you had very clean corn syrup, you could undetectably dilute honey and it would be quite the same. Lab tests being what they are thes…

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10346535/ Numerous studies have concluded that honey does have a better effect on health than the same amount of simple syrup, at least. > It has been demonstrated that honey consumption can influence plasma lipid, glucose, and insulin levels through different biochemical mechanisms. The decrease in blood glucose may be due to the fact that honey has a stimulatory effect on in…

An uncited statement in a review article!

If I'm rich in time and money enough to routinely take the time to wander down to my friendly beekeeper and buy their small-batch artisanal honey, for so many reasons I will live longer than someone who isn't.

Someone should randomize people to honey vs fake-honey-sugar-mix and settle the issue.

Re: Beekeepers halt honey awards over fraud in global supply chain

#148

Post by slt2021 »

liontwist wrote: post #136
Etheryte wrote: post #10

Here's a very straightforward guide to buying honey. If you see honey at a supermarket, no you don't, that's sugar syrup. If you see honey online, no you don't, that's sugar syrup. If you find an old dude with a small stand and a bunch of (most likely unlabelled) jars who only accepts cash, that's where you get real honey.

The "down to earth local grower" is a form of marketing that appeals to you. It's not a guarantee of quality, and probably more variable. Many vendors at farmer's markets just buy and relabel stuff, because producing goods efficiently enough to make a profit is actually hard.

agree, a lot of honey growers feed sugar syrup to the bees to maximize honey production.

it is sort of cheating

Re: Beekeepers halt honey awards over fraud in global supply chain

#149

Post by fsckboy »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #110
fsckboy wrote: post #83

the reason that adulterated honey is difficult to detect is that honey is just sugar syrup, and if you add more sugar syrup you'll get more sugar syrup than you started with. the mistaken belief is that there is something special about natural honey. people: it's sugar syrup, it'll give you diabetes as fast as a truckload of mountain dew. Now, I don't believe in homeopathy, perhaps you do. But that's what the honey c…

This is false. I'd be willing to wager substantial amounts of money on my ability to differentiate good acacia honey from sugar syrup.

you don't need to wager substantial amounts of money, just buy honey, eat it, and you'll be able to tell if it's the real thing, enjoy if it is; return it if you're dissatisfied.

Be sure to tell the authors of this article and the officials at these judging conventions that you don't know what they're on about.

Re: Beekeepers halt honey awards over fraud in global supply chain

#150

Post by laxk »

fsckboy wrote: post #83

the reason that adulterated honey is difficult to detect is that honey is just sugar syrup, and if you add more sugar syrup you'll get more sugar syrup than you started with. the mistaken belief is that there is something special about natural honey. people: it's sugar syrup, it'll give you diabetes as fast as a truckload of mountain dew. Now, I don't believe in homeopathy, perhaps you do. But that's what the honey c…

You've somehow overgeneralized it. This is of course fructose, but with much better properties. :)

Just facts [0]:

- honey contains antioxidants, amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) and vitamins and minerals, such as Thiamin, riboflavin, pyridoxin, vitamin A, niacin, panthothenic acid, phyllochinon, vitamin E, and vitamin C

- honey also has been successfully used for wound and burn healing. (If you grab a frying pan or burn your hand/skin, apply honey, there will be no blisters or peeling skin.)

- honey consumption reduces risk factors of cardiovascular diseases

[0] https://sugarscience.ucsf.edu/the-sweet-science-behind-honey...

Post reply on HN