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How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

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Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The people" are the president's superior.

Only in the same sense that bottom-level employees are the CEO's superior. Which is to say, they aren't. Formal structure can stabilize a system and make it resilient to shocks. But there's a limit to how much stability can be provided, and if you provide enough shock, the structure will change.

> Only in the same sense that bottom-level employees are the CEO's superior. Which is to say, they aren't.

Fascinating: What companies do you know of that have democratic elections of CEOs?

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that's how it should be, but experience tells me that everyone is insecure and it's hardly correlated with position and job security. People lower down the chain are insecure because they could legitimately be let go at any time for any reason. People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating. Especially having failings pointed out by someone "below" them.

From my experience, you build that non-fluff boundaries in the first one or two meetings with a senior leader. I’d advise against going in the first one throwing punches. Go with actionable feedback and be honest about what it is and what is not something you can solve. From there, if you genuinely care about whatever you’re complaning, you are more likely to be taken seriously.

Simply be blunt about other topics to set the tone for interactions.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#143
post #11
post #4

This was one of the most exhausting aspects of working for a US company, especially as an H1B. Simply: just don't say anything, it wasn't worth it. I'm from cultures where we bluntly call a spade a spade and pride ourselves on disdain for hierarchy. There's far less fear in raising concerns generally to anyone, but it's quite possibly because of the far better employment laws.

It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actuall…

Too much my experience as well.

Inside AWS felt like hundreds (thousands?) of Indians who have terrible jobs but don't do anything about it. Now that I'm out I can't believe what I put up with.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#144
post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

I'm not a fan of a lot of the examples here for feedback up or down.

> “We may need to give even more guidance to new hires.”

Up or down, "we may" and "even more" are weasel words that weaken what you're saying. It's trivial for someone to interpret that as "they think maybe we could do more, but they seem to also see that we do a good amount already."

> “I used to struggle with this, and when I tried X, it really helped.”

This one I think is good for managing down; bad for managing up. It's less weasel-y but it risks coming off very aggressive - "I already figured this out, what is wrong with you?"

> “The team made amazing progress when we all focused on the website update last month. It might help to have one or two clear priorities for the team this month that everyone can rally behind.”

You have a great example, "it might help" is again weakening your POV compared to something more like a direct "what are the top priorities this month that we can all rally around?"

> “When we were able to dedicate that first week to training Steve, he got up to speed pretty quickly. The bit of upfront time seemed to have paid off, and taking a similar training approach for our next hire could help them ramp up just as fast. What do you think?”

Here we've taken a lot of words to state the obvious, which IMO both runs the risk of losing the urgency in the verbosity and coming off as pandering and over-explaining the obvious.

I think "what are your thoughts on" and "one approach might be" are better in both up-and-down directions as long as associated with a clear specific "here is something I noticed that I think is sub-optimal" situation.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#145
post #89
post #42

In my 13 years of experience, I would say it's never worth giving feedback to your manager. Either they are good and it's useless, or they are not and they won't learn from you. I have come to a simple rule: if the manager is good, there is no problem. If the manager sucks (often that's because they lack experience, but it's all the same), just lie to them in order to preserve yourself. No need to have empathy for th…

So bleak. It's fine to protect yourself but your managers are people too. You _can_ build a report with them and be frank with them. When I manage folks, I much prefer honesty over someone who just bullshits you.

Managers aren't just people, they're people who have your employment in their hands. Reports will act appropriately for that fact.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#146
post #11
post #4

This was one of the most exhausting aspects of working for a US company, especially as an H1B. Simply: just don't say anything, it wasn't worth it. I'm from cultures where we bluntly call a spade a spade and pride ourselves on disdain for hierarchy. There's far less fear in raising concerns generally to anyone, but it's quite possibly because of the far better employment laws.

It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actuall…

What a ridiculous complaint and wild gymnastics to blame a cultural gripe on to the hardworking deferent immigrants

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#147
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actuall…

Too much my experience as well. Inside AWS felt like hundreds (thousands?) of Indians who have terrible jobs but don't do anything about it. Now that I'm out I can't believe what I put up with.

Perhaps you could present yourself as worthy through your work, rather than bemoaning that others as worthy were more conducive to being treasured employees?

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#149
post #17

In aviation this is what Crew Resource Management is about, and in particular, how to make sure the monitoring pilot, who may be the least experienced one, can effectively supervise and review the actions of the other. Many crashes were the result of copilots' fear of speaking up. Business life could learn from this. The person in charge is not a king, they're simply the person tasked with making decisions. There is…

> Better that than crashing into a mountain.

Quite literally: https://youtu.be/kamyxB-yKrc?t=1479

Or rolling off a cliff: https://youtu.be/0ga8UFy1M04?t=742

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#150
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you’re ignoring the “without getting fired” part. The "start polishing your resume" bit was quite explicit.

Unless you are the .1% of developer (and probably with a heaping helping of luck) you aren't going to end up working someplace that isn't terminally dysfunctional no matter how much you polish your resume.

Being in the top 0.001% of developers won’t help if you don’t have a large network or good brand
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