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Please stop the coding challenges

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Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#141

Post by eitally »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #93
keiferski wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the interview is testing for the ability to learn new difficult things quickly, then it would seem to be successful.

Is "cramming" the same as "learning"? Is knowing the chemical reaction between an acid and baking soda the same as being a world class patissier? Many of these exercises are like "demonstrate that you can make this dough rise" but not actually considering "can you make an artful and delicious pastry"; the two are totally different. The most surprising thing when asked about their experience was that most of the detai…

At some inflection point, though, cramming becomes learning. This is in a different place for each individual, but it's true regardless.

Nobody hires anybody other than artists based on whether they can "create an artful and _____ ____". People are hired based on either what the have done, can claim to be able to do, or whom they know.

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#142

Post by inerte »

NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #130
bluedevilzn wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working 40 hours and making 7 figures, gives you plenty of time to have a life. The key here is not to categorize as a “language developer”.

Is 7 figures even realistic? I was under the impression that even a senior FAANG job was still just under $300k typically. Does anyone outside of a CTO/CIO make $1mil+?

I know half a dozen of Senior Staff at FAANGs and they make I would say around 600k - 700k, more of course if stocks appreciate but that's hard to control.

Consistent total compensation offers of $1mil+ is probably reserved for roles above these, sometimes called Principal or Distinguished. I would say the rate of having one of these in an org are like 1 for ~150 engineers.

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#143

Post by swatcoder »

mekoka wrote: post #115
CharlieDigital wrote: post #72

A small anecdote. A partner of a friend quit their job earlier this year. They then took 4-6 weeks to prepare for each interview with Big Tech companies (4-6 weeks for Meta, 4-6 weeks for Stripe, etc.). Along the way, they also took random interviews just to practice and build muscle memory. They would grind leetcode several hours a day after researching which questions were likely to be encountered at each Big Tech.…

> IRL, this individual is a good but not exceptional engineer having worked with them on a small project. Have you worked with them since they went through this regiment? Doing a DS&A coding problem regiment + system design will change you as an engineer. You might be surprised how good they've become. Also they say they've forgotten. But if they were able to get that position, they probably could do medium level lee…

No home study grind on puzzle problems is a substitute for years of practical experience, which is what most teams actually hope for in their higher-level engineers.

The point is not that the friend didn't pick up some implicit knowledge or become a sharper engineer than they were before grinding, it's that by exploiting the screening strategy, they got placed into a job they're not truly qualified for.

Are they bright enough to fake it until they make it? Maybe, but that's not going to be the case for many of the countless placements that were made like this, and hints at why both product and software quality is in bad shape these days.

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#144

Post by pydry »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #131
pmg101 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A moderately smart person was selected for a good job perhaps over many many better possible hires simply because that person had the leisure to learn the game. Inefficient. But nice for that individual, naturally.

But is there a good way to find the "better possible hires" which doesn't have other significant disadvantages? If you have a convincing method of doing that, many companies would be interested in your ideas.

Yes, ask give interview tasks which are realistic depictions of the actual job tasks.

No, the hiring managers that are into cargoogle culting are not actually that interested in how to do interviewing properly. Not unless, say, google does it and they can copy it.

For them the important thing is that leetcode is a safe, defensible choice because "everyone else does it that way".

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#146

Post by Apocryphon »

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #131
pmg101 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A moderately smart person was selected for a good job perhaps over many many better possible hires simply because that person had the leisure to learn the game. Inefficient. But nice for that individual, naturally.

But is there a good way to find the "better possible hires" which doesn't have other significant disadvantages? If you have a convincing method of doing that, many companies would be interested in your ideas.

Starfighter doesn’t seem to have gotten anywhere

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37985450

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#147

Post by dfkasdfksdf »

mekoka wrote: post #115
CharlieDigital wrote: post #72

A small anecdote. A partner of a friend quit their job earlier this year. They then took 4-6 weeks to prepare for each interview with Big Tech companies (4-6 weeks for Meta, 4-6 weeks for Stripe, etc.). Along the way, they also took random interviews just to practice and build muscle memory. They would grind leetcode several hours a day after researching which questions were likely to be encountered at each Big Tech.…

> IRL, this individual is a good but not exceptional engineer having worked with them on a small project. Have you worked with them since they went through this regiment? Doing a DS&A coding problem regiment + system design will change you as an engineer. You might be surprised how good they've become. Also they say they've forgotten. But if they were able to get that position, they probably could do medium level lee…

> Have you worked with them since they went through this regiment? Doing a DS&A coding problem regiment + system design will change you as an engineer. You might be surprised how good they've become.

Having done this prep, I can't tell if this comment is sarcasm. Building real systems makes you a good engineer. Maintaining systems over a long period of time makes you a good engineer. Working with other experienced engineers makes you a good engineer.

Doing this prep you do learn a few things along the way, but it's contrived. You already know what you need to learn, which is often the hard part on the job. It's works as a filter since the ability to learn concepts is important, but it's usefulness continues to trend downwards as it becomes more standardized.

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#148

Post by Apocryphon »

ForHackernews wrote: post #111
dmvdoug wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s like the bar exam for lawyers. It bears absolutely no relationship whatsoever to the actual job and the work you will be doing. It’s a pointless ritual. And the point of the above story is that the person performed the ritual and then promptly forgot all the words once they succeeded. It illustrates the pointlessness.

It's not a pointless ritual. It tests for determination, grit, and willingness to grind on difficult, frustrating and ultimately value-free tasks. All crucial skills in the modern technology or legal workplace.

At least you only have to pass the bar once.

Re: Please stop the coding challenges

#149

Post by varun_chopra »

I apologise for the shameless plug but I’m working on something to solve this.[1] The problem is that most hiring can be classified into 2 types - the company needs candidates that can work with their tech stack OR they want candidates who are good, regardless of tech stack. What we do today is conduct interviews that make no sense and that have vague signals when we could be assessing them based on real-world skills. Candidates shouldn’t have to practice interviewing in any case!

If you are a hiring manager and would like to experiment with something like this, please get in touch!

[1] https://pencilbeam.com

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