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The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

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Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#141

Post by rjsw »

TimK65 wrote: post #84
SpecialistK wrote: post #65

I only speak English, but I have found and theorized that one's ability to learn and retain a L2 is heavily affected by your society's "need" to communicate outside of the national language. This article largely reinforces that theory. If people do not have a need to learn another language, it becomes an uphill battle. People in Finland report higher levels of English competency than people in France (despite French…

I have a somewhat related theory about English in Europe: The smaller countries are better at English partly because they subtitle rather than dubbing. That means that when they see English-language movies or watch English-language television, they're hearing English rather than their native language. I think this helps people maintain some level of English proficiency years after they leave school. (I'm American, li…

I felt this from working in the Netherlands. One thing that may change it in larger countries is digital TV, the broadcast can have both original and dubbed soundtracks available.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#142

Post by macintux »

MichaelZuo wrote: post #121
TulliusCicero wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's probably most of it, but the way Japan typically teaches English is sort of notoriously bad. That probably doesn't help either. > If people do not have a need to learn another language, it becomes an uphill battle. You do see some Japanese companies talking up the need for English competency; I suppose if more and more companies there use English competency as one thing they're looking for in job applicants, t…

There are Japanese diplomats with nearly flawless English skills though…

I would wager that most diplomats come from a very privileged upbringing. As the article indicates, wealthier families can afford private English tutoring, which causes some friction with proposed changes to testing standards.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#143

Post by FredPret »

ekusiadadus wrote: post #86

I'm Japanese. Speaking English in Japan is very challenging. All my friends and family speak Japanese, and everything from social media to news is completely accessible in Japanese. I'm an entrepreneur, and I use English when talking with international clients and overseas VCs. However, I lack confidence, and the communication tends to remain superficial, making it difficult to effectively do business internationally…

If your spoken English is 10% as good as your comment, you're way ahead of the average English speaker.

That said, I can't wait for AI earbud / smartglasses Babel Fish [0] to become a reality.

[0] https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Babel_Fish

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#144

Post by thfuran »

mapt wrote: post #139
helboi4 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you speak Japanese you will have a waaaaaay better time in Japan. But no they will not ever accept you in the same way you could be accepted in a European country. If you're Korean or Chinese you might get away with it with the younger generation. But ethnicity is still a big barrier there. Source - I speak Japanese.

That is the situation right now. It's not necessarily going to be the situation forever. Every demographic crisis involving low birthrates is an immigration melting pot waiting for the population to get desperate enough to change policies.

Changing policy to admit more immigrants is easy. Changing culture is hard.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#145

Post by pixl97 »

mapt wrote: post #139
helboi4 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you speak Japanese you will have a waaaaaay better time in Japan. But no they will not ever accept you in the same way you could be accepted in a European country. If you're Korean or Chinese you might get away with it with the younger generation. But ethnicity is still a big barrier there. Source - I speak Japanese.

That is the situation right now. It's not necessarily going to be the situation forever. Every demographic crisis involving low birthrates is an immigration melting pot waiting for the population to get desperate enough to change policies.

Depends how long they wait. Unless something changes in the next decade areas producing excess population are going to be in demand and they may find it difficult to attract people quickly enough.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#146

Post by RandallBrown »

laurieg wrote: post #64

I've lived in Japan for over a decade and I think this article summarizes some aspects of English education well. I'd like to share a few of my thoughts and experiences too. English is often put on a very high pedestal. Speaking fluent English is associated with being "elite". A tech company in my city is slowly moving to doing all development work in English. I went to a casual tech talk event they held. Every talk…

> They sometimes modify their English pronunciation to sound "more Japanese" when they start English classes in school

I saw a video where an American was trying to order a McFlurry at McDonalds in Japan and the worker couldn't understand "McFlurry" pronounced in English so they had to pronounce it in what (without context) would sound quite racist.

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#147

Post by huehehue »

RandallBrown wrote: post #146
laurieg wrote: post #64

I've lived in Japan for over a decade and I think this article summarizes some aspects of English education well. I'd like to share a few of my thoughts and experiences too. English is often put on a very high pedestal. Speaking fluent English is associated with being "elite". A tech company in my city is slowly moving to doing all development work in English. I went to a casual tech talk event they held. Every talk…

> They sometimes modify their English pronunciation to sound "more Japanese" when they start English classes in school I saw a video where an American was trying to order a McFlurry at McDonalds in Japan and the worker couldn't understand "McFlurry" pronounced in English so they had to pronounce it in what (without context) would sound quite racist.

For the curious, it would be something like "makku-fu-ruri"

This was my experience in Japan as well. So many words we're used to saying in English use mouth shapes that the Japanese language does not, so you really have to tweak how you say things to align with what's available.

"Coffee" is a fun one for the tired westerner

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#148

Post by ggm »

"Year of living Danishly" [0] is this but for English -> Denmark.

Neighbours who knock on your door to explain you are putting the rubbish bin out wrongly in the street and it concerns them.

My sense of Denmark changed after reading this book, to one which included 'very high expectations of social conformity' which in some ways, matches Japan.

(ok. not this exactly because not primarily language focussed but there is topic drift in this thread)

[0] The Year of Living Danishly: Uncovering the Secrets of the World's Happiest Country - Helen Russell

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#149

Post by riizade »

saithound wrote: post #120
bulbosaur123 wrote: post #44

I will get downvoted and hated for what I'm going to say. What's with the west's pathalogical obsession with Japan and Japanese? Is anime & JAV to blame here? Look, you have Chinese spoken by 1.35 billion people. Foreigners who speak Chinese are way more rare than those who speak Japanese, therefore making it a more valuable language to acquire for business, diplomacy and travel. China is the new emerging superpower.…

> therefore making it a more valuable language to acquire for business, diplomacy and travel Learning a Chinese language for the business, diplomacy or travel opportunities is a stupid, stupid idea. In the English-speaking West, bwtween 1.6% and 5.0% of the population are native speakers of both some Chinese language and English. The business and diplomacy opportunities that require a Chinese-speaker all go to these…

> normally, you can visit the PRC for 15 days, you're railroaded throughout your whole trip, and you're required by law to stay in a select few hotels where the staff speak English anyway

Huh?

The tourist visa is I believe 90 days per entry (as it is for most countries), and valid for 10 years. There has been no foreign guest licensing requirement in the PRC since 2002, as far as I can tell, and even then it didn't seem to be a "select few" hotels, it was something any hotel could get, but probably a lot didn't because international tourism to China wasn't as big then. Some hotels will refuse foreign guests, apparently, but that's the hotel's individual decision and it doesn't seem to be widespread.

I know several non-Chinese people who have traveled extensively throughout China via simple tourist visas, there were no restrictions as far as I could tell, and I've never heard of any.

Are you confusing the PRC with the DPRK?

Re: The English Paradox: Four decades of life and language in Japan

#150

Post by CarVac »

tkgally wrote: post #2

I am the author of this article and will be interested to read HNers’ thoughts and discussion about the topic. I will also be happy to respond to questions.

I just visited Japan and found the language situation around tourists was frankly perplexing.

With some tourists, English was a lingua franca. I ran across some Chinese tourists asking some non-English speaking white tourists (French maybe?) a question in English and not being able to communicate.

With others, Japanese was the interchange language of choice, such as with some Taiwanese tourists.

For native Japanese people speaking English, it was invariably a huge relief for them to fall back to speaking in Japanese with me. Even those with excellent English pronunciation were like this too.

Only once did I feel weird speaking Japanese, with a hotel receptionist who turned out to be Korean.

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