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Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

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Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#141

Post by aspenmayer »

wiseowise wrote: post #128
aspenmayer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coca-Cola did this too with Fanta. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanta

Coca-Cola didn’t circumvent ban. They had to come up with a new product.

> During the Second World War, Germany was under a United States trade embargo, the British naval blockade and the import of Coca-Cola syrup was prohibited. To circumvent this, Max Keith, the head of Coca-Cola Deutschland (Coca-Cola GmbH), decided to create a new product for the German market, using only ingredients available in Germany at the time, including sugar beet, whey (a cheese byproduct), and apple pomace. He later described them as the "leftovers of leftovers".

An embargo is literally a ban on trading.

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#142

Post by protomolecule »

chii wrote: post #35
bruce511 wrote: post #30

Nvidia is obviously a US company, but the chips themselves are manufactured in Taiwan. And of course China sees Taiwan as a rogue province, at at least treats invasion there as "on the table". While the US may decide to actively support Taiwan, at the very least a war over that will disrupt production. Should Taiwan fall, and China choose to ban exports from there to the US, then the fun and games would really start.…

> there's less incentive for China to control Taiwan. a very minor effect imho. china doesn't want to control taiwan due to any economic reasons. It's ideological. China doesn't want the model of a free, democratic society of chinese people to exist, because it proves that the CCP's authoritarianism isn't the only "good" model. Look at how hong kong was cracked down; china took the opportunity to do it, when the econ…

[flagged]

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#143

Post by Qwertious »

PittleyDunkin wrote: post #76
chii wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's less incentive for China to control Taiwan. a very minor effect imho. china doesn't want to control taiwan due to any economic reasons. It's ideological. China doesn't want the model of a free, democratic society of chinese people to exist, because it proves that the CCP's authoritarianism isn't the only "good" model. Look at how hong kong was cracked down; china took the opportunity to do it, when the econ…

> china doesn't want to control taiwan due to any economic reasons That's absolutely not true if only for the existence of TSMC.

Not only have Taiwan said that if Taiwan invades, "we're going to blow up TSMC", but sabotaging semiconductors is absolutely, utterly trivial to do by anyone in the dozens/hundreds of steps needed to produce the cutting-edge semiconductors that make the difference between TSMC and China's domestic fabs.

You can wreck production yields by using the wrong color of paint in the break room or running a fan outside the building, no that is not an exaggeration.

But, maybe there's some economic value in invading Taiwan. What's the economic cost, though? Well, besides the collapse of the semiconductor industry that China is quite reliant on. What else? Sanctions up the wazoo. Sanctions from the US, sanctions from Europe and from major US allies, sanctions from anyone in the South China Sea most likely.

Taiwan doesn't have any natural resources, their knowledge workers can just leave (and the US will offer green cards and evacuation to everyone involved in the chips needed by the US army, if China tries to invade), their economy will plummet when imports drop from sanctions, and also China will be at war, and war is terrible for the economy.

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#144

Post by rfoo »

komali2 wrote: post #113
InkCanon wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the perspective of a third party and trying to understand things in a way that separates politics from reality (like PG says arguments involving identity are impossible to resolve), both Taiwanese and what might be called CCP-ese are largely political. Chinese has the rare quality of historically referring to ethnicity, language and culture to a degree not seen in most other peoples. There's also a final and mos…

> ethnically, linguistically and culturally Chinese Again I ask - where is this impression coming from? And for what definition of "Chinese?" Can you please write the specific term you're thinking of in Mandarin to be more clear? In English "Chinese" means too many things, especially with the CPC changing the definition over the last 50 years or so. To be fair, the same thing is happening in Mandarin, so it would hel…

There definitely is a Chinese ethnicity.

What you are talking about sounds like claiming that the US is not a country built by immigrants because there are Indians.

I can understand why you insist on such ideas if you are, well, the so-called "Taiwanese indigenous peoples". If you are not and your family was largely brought to Taiwan in 1940s with KMT then idk, maybe think harder?

Either way, I don't believe it's wise to continue the talk as your view - The only connection between Taiwan and whatever definition of China was, Taiwan was occupied by Qing, and then KMT - isn't popular or accepted at all outside Taiwan. Not even in the anglo-sphere. Citing a lot of facts while conveniently leaving out others does not help, too.

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#145

Post by zokier »

daft_pink wrote: post #96

They should cancel their patents or software copyright on the cuda apis as a response. The only reason they are dominant is because of their software control.

ZLUDA exists. I hasn't received any legal challenges from nvidia, even when it was sponsored by AMD.

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#146

Post by forty »

InkCanon wrote: post #68
chii wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's less incentive for China to control Taiwan. a very minor effect imho. china doesn't want to control taiwan due to any economic reasons. It's ideological. China doesn't want the model of a free, democratic society of chinese people to exist, because it proves that the CCP's authoritarianism isn't the only "good" model. Look at how hong kong was cracked down; china took the opportunity to do it, when the econ…

This is a somewhat shallow and more buzz phrasey explanation of it. China wanted to invade Taiwan long before it became a democracy. And China is adjacent to many prosperous democracies like Japan and South Korea. Not to mention the hundred million middle class Chinese tourists and numerous students who can see the developed democracies with their own eyes. With Occam's razor, the simple answer is really that they co…

I think independent Taiwan greatly reduce Chinese sea ownership and access, which is annoying for both economic and military reasons

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#147

Post by high_na_euv »

aurareturn wrote: post #140
high_na_euv wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>China wants to design and manufacture chips on TSMC. They want to design and manufacture themselves. >First, smuggling adds costs and risks Going to war does the same multiplied by 100? 1000?

>They want to design and manufacture themselves. Sure, but they want to rely on TSMC now so they don't fall behind in high tech in 2024/2025. Getting their own EUV tech is still many years away. >Going to war does the same multiplied by 100? 1000? Well, you know what they say, if I can't have it, you can't either.

But US has Intels fabs, which will be around or at leading node (18A) in next 6-8months

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#148

Post by RobotToaster »

InkCanon wrote: post #68
chii wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there's less incentive for China to control Taiwan. a very minor effect imho. china doesn't want to control taiwan due to any economic reasons. It's ideological. China doesn't want the model of a free, democratic society of chinese people to exist, because it proves that the CCP's authoritarianism isn't the only "good" model. Look at how hong kong was cracked down; china took the opportunity to do it, when the econ…

This is a somewhat shallow and more buzz phrasey explanation of it. China wanted to invade Taiwan long before it became a democracy. And China is adjacent to many prosperous democracies like Japan and South Korea. Not to mention the hundred million middle class Chinese tourists and numerous students who can see the developed democracies with their own eyes. With Occam's razor, the simple answer is really that they co…

> Taiwan did the same for many years.

IIRC Officially the ROC still claim the entire mainland, Mongolia, and parts of Russia as their territory.

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#149

Post by est »

NBJack wrote: post #103
est wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China thinks of Taiwan as a rogue province because of nationalism To explain: Taiwan was like the Jerusalem of CCP. The CCP was originally founded as a Leninism crusade on May 4th 1919 because League of Nations fuck-ups

I really want to dig into this further. Can you share any good resources (pod casts or equivalent I can listen to) that cover the history here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Fourth_Movement#Birth_of_C...

this is a good place to start.

Re: Nvidia and its partners built a system to bypass U.S. export restrictions

#150

Post by spwa4 »

RobotToaster wrote: post #148
InkCanon wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a somewhat shallow and more buzz phrasey explanation of it. China wanted to invade Taiwan long before it became a democracy. And China is adjacent to many prosperous democracies like Japan and South Korea. Not to mention the hundred million middle class Chinese tourists and numerous students who can see the developed democracies with their own eyes. With Occam's razor, the simple answer is really that they co…

> Taiwan did the same for many years. IIRC Officially the ROC still claim the entire mainland, Mongolia, and parts of Russia as their territory.

Plus there's the whole "it doesn't make economic sense for X to attack" which doesn't seem to have worked anywhere. Ideology seems to not just trump economic rationality in war, but to literally be the only factor.

X can be:

* Hamas

* Hezbollah

* Russia

* Sudan RSF or SAF

* Iran

* Afghanistan

The list goes on. All of these suffered greatly economically due to beginning unprovoked wars (only RSF has any real claim to being attacked, and even then they could easily have halted the fighting quickly if they wanted to)

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