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A new dental scam is to pull healthy teeth to sell you expensive fake ones

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Re: A new dental scam is to pull healthy teeth to sell you expensive fake ones

#141

Post by TeaBrain »

candiddevmike wrote: post #12
SoftTalker wrote: post #4

It's a bit off topic but I often wonder why dentistry is not a specialization of medicine (like e.g. dermatology) but is its own separate thing, with separate insurance, etc. Dental health is part of being healthy. A lot of dental work is surgery. To me, it should be part of regular medical care.

Dentistry is a specialization, and Dentists are doctors. Not "doctors" in the chiropractic sense, but actual doctors with residency requirements.

In the US, dentistry isn't a specialization of medicine. Medical specializations have to go to medical school then residency first before specializing. Dentists just go to dental school. Dentists in the US aren't medical doctors any more than JDs or PhDs are.

Re: A new dental scam is to pull healthy teeth to sell you expensive fake ones

#142

Post by johnchristopher »

nextworddev wrote: post #15
azinman2 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest problem is the cost of education. People have loans to repay, and then don’t take time to apprentice like they used to. In dentistry this leads to a lot of unnecessary work. In medicine this leads to very short appointments, and fewer doctors.

We should not blame “cost of education” to justify fraud especially for healthcare related things. There’s a line, don’t cross it

Though I believe the cost of education isn't the only explanation I also think it's unwise to ignore systemic problems, blaming and prosecuting individuals won't make them disappear.

Re: A new dental scam is to pull healthy teeth to sell you expensive fake ones

#143

Post by pkaye »

Nearly 15 years ago I had to intervene on behalf of my elderly mother who had some tooth pain and went to a local dentist. The dentist wanted to replace all her teeth with implants. When she mentioned what the dentist recommended, I was shocked and went with her. Turns out the dentist was a scumbag who was ticked off the I was questioning him about the procedure and wasting his time. So I took my mother to my own dentist and they said it was just a minor cavity and took care of it. My mother has had no teeth problems since then.

Re: A new dental scam is to pull healthy teeth to sell you expensive fake ones

#144

Post by JBorrow »

hansonkd wrote: post #31

This might sound stupid but I refuse to go to dentists that have "too nice" of an office. Over the years I have lived in several places and had a variety of dentists and one common theme that sticks with me, the nicer and higher tech the office is, the more procedures they are going to recommend you. They need to pay for the equipment and office somehow. I've had one dentist say I need 3 cavities filled. That I neede…

I’m not so sure. For me a reliable way to find a “good” dentist is to find one that’s attached to a (big) medical school or university. Of course this is easier to do in cities than in rural areas though. I’d always take a waiting list and, say, a dentist from the UC system than one that’s a regular practice.

Re: A new dental scam is to pull healthy teeth to sell you expensive fake ones

#145

Post by renewiltord »

hansonkd wrote: post #31

This might sound stupid but I refuse to go to dentists that have "too nice" of an office. Over the years I have lived in several places and had a variety of dentists and one common theme that sticks with me, the nicer and higher tech the office is, the more procedures they are going to recommend you. They need to pay for the equipment and office somehow. I've had one dentist say I need 3 cavities filled. That I neede…

My dentist’s office is nice but it’s clear he gets customer LTV. Most of the time he advises I do nothing. Then there are some that he advises we do. Overall I like him.

Re: A new dental scam is to pull healthy teeth to sell you expensive fake ones

#146

Post by yardie »

woobar wrote: post #88
yardie wrote: post #33

My wife, who is a recent immigrant to the US, when she goes to get her teeth cleaned here is what happens: dental hygeniest does there thing, X-rays are taken that weren't asked for, dentist come in to review the photos, sure enough her mouth is falling apart and she has loads of cavities, then they want to discuss a treatment plan. When she gets home we discuss it and agree $8000 in Invisalign is a bit excessive. Th…

You are saying that multiple dentists found issues with your wife's teeth, she routinely refuses treatment, and this is somehow a scam?

This whole post is about dentists recommending unnecessary treatment. And that has been our experience.

She never had all these issues when she was seeing her dentist in her own country. But a few years in the US and her teeth are practically falling apart. Is it possible her previous dentist with no financial incentive found nothing wrong with her, yet the new one who is trying to make next quarters profit has every incentive to upsell?

Re: A new dental scam is to pull healthy teeth to sell you expensive fake ones

#147

Post by grogenaut »

hansonkd wrote: post #31

This might sound stupid but I refuse to go to dentists that have "too nice" of an office. Over the years I have lived in several places and had a variety of dentists and one common theme that sticks with me, the nicer and higher tech the office is, the more procedures they are going to recommend you. They need to pay for the equipment and office somehow. I've had one dentist say I need 3 cavities filled. That I neede…

The closest dentist to me in downtown St. Louis was really good but had a nice place. They sold me a night guard which I lost the first day and replaced with the cheap formable ones. They were kinda miffed I didn't want another one at $650. They did a filling on the top of my molars which a later dentist confirmed was the right move. The dentist was always pushing whitening treatments. I asked if they were healthy for the teeth and how long they lasted. Not really and about 8 months. I defered. They then later tried to sell me on veneers. I asked if my teeth were healthy and they said "very". I then said "it feels very shady and concerning that you are recommending that I grind off perfectly healthy teeth to replace them with veneers for around $30k. Please stop recommending things like that". We had a discussion and she said that some people really cared about the cosmetics. It had always triggered her that I had a small gap in my front teeth (which I had because as soon I turned 18 I told the orthodontist to f*ck off once he said it would take some real pain and was purely cosmetic). I pointed out that it actually made Michael Strahan seem more authentic and no longer seemed problematic. At that point she acquiesced. But I also realized how she was affording such a nice office beyond her cleanings costing double what my insurance covered.

After that she was excellent and didn't bother me with anything that was cosmetic. They were 3 blocks from my apartment, did mid day cleanings, and did an excellent job getting my gums back to healthy when I had neglected dental care after college.

But yeah, they gotta pay for that mercedes somehow.

Re: A new dental scam is to pull healthy teeth to sell you expensive fake ones

#148

Post by alwa »

highcountess wrote: post #80
tcbawo wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This also applies to several other competitive industries with asymmetric information — auto repair, plumbing, and HVAC come to mind. Consumers have to place their trust in someone. It always pays to be an informed consumer. Sometimes, I guess you have to pick and choose your battles.

This is why the consequences of dishonesty in such asymmetric dynamics need to be not just major, but stunningly, shockingly severe; e.g., seizure of all assets, including homes and anything that would otherwise be protected to totally impoverish them and bar them from any professional position for life. These types of relationships are the bullseye for deterrence through sever punishment; they are deliberative offen…

Isn’t this type of dishonesty especially ambiguous and difficult to prove? There are extreme cases, but also a broad range of opinion in which professionals routinely disagree.

The higher the stakes, the more ambiguous the problem: I’m reminded of lawyering. How do we know if a defense lawyer is “bad” or “dishonest”? If we look at their conviction ratio, then we might just be punishing the ones who tend to work the more hopeless cases—and a good lawyer is correct to behave as if even guilty people deserve a full defense. If we ask the customer/defendants, pretty much anybody who loses will loudly explain how they’re innocent and would have gotten off if it weren’t for that bad lawyer they had.

The dentist who treats aggressively will explain how the “wait-and-see” dentist is neglecting problems, and the “wait-and-see” dentist will explain, like the tech people commenting here, that the aggressive dentists are doing stuff that’s unnecessary (or not necessary yet).

I, a person who pays for my own dental care, will continue to prefer and seek out a conservative approach to treatment; an acquaintance of mine, who has dental insurance but gets it from a startup job that could evaporate tomorrow, will prefer to gather his implants while he may. Which of our dentists should be ruined for life, “stunningly, shockingly,” and permanently crippled?

Re: A new dental scam is to pull healthy teeth to sell you expensive fake ones

#149

Post by everybodyknows »

dopylitty wrote: post #30

I looked into this "ClearChoice" company and unsurprisingly it's private equity owned through a chain of sketchy intermediaries. If you're having any sort of medical or other work done make sure the company is not PE owned or affiliated. The best way to check that I've found is to look for press releases. In this case there's a press release from 2020[0] about "The Aspen Group" acquiring ClearChoice. The Aspen Group…

Another red flag, even in a solo office, is overt advertising.

Re: A new dental scam is to pull healthy teeth to sell you expensive fake ones

#150

Post by rediguanayum »

hansonkd wrote: post #31

This might sound stupid but I refuse to go to dentists that have "too nice" of an office. Over the years I have lived in several places and had a variety of dentists and one common theme that sticks with me, the nicer and higher tech the office is, the more procedures they are going to recommend you. They need to pay for the equipment and office somehow. I've had one dentist say I need 3 cavities filled. That I neede…

I agree. My rule of thumb is if the wait is long then the dentist is doing their job, and be worried if not. A decade ago, I had a young dentist with a new practice with a large office, new gorgeous equipment, and no wait. He recommended that my later described as cracked tooth should be replaced with crowns or implants. He kept on asking if my teeth were sensitive and should be replaced, and gave me a used car salesperson shrug when I said I'd think about it. Almost a decade later due to such silly advice, I finally went to another dentist with a 6 month wait for an appointment and a nice but tiny office. They said they would put a protective sealant on my now described cracked tooth, and it's been going strong since then. Good advice and outcomes comes with a wait.
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