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Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

medscape.com

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Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#141

Post by debacle »

I have been taking seratonin precursors (5-HTP, a supplement) for about 4 months at a very low dosage (.3 of the "normal dose").

My chronic depression is mostly gone, but I have noticed an uptick in physiological signs of anxiety (though no mental signs).

But more importantly, my gut health is better than it has been in 12 years. I am eating more and losing weight. My energy levels have skyrocketed. My impulsiveness has catered so hard that I was worried my libido was impacted. My executive function issues and ADHD are greatly minimized.

All from a supplement. Utterly life changing.

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#142

Post by samatman »

neom wrote: post #38
agumonkey wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it something that you still take here and there or was it a time limited therapy ? Congrats on finding a cure for your ailments

I did 3 sessions of 8 grams in silent darkness for 3 weekends in a row and that basically "beat the devil out of me" as they say - it was very very difficult, and a lot of work, but well worth it.I've only felt the "brain haze" (I call it) once since then, I took a gram and went for a long walk in the forest, back to no haze. It's been about 7/8 months and I can feel the "haze" building in my mind again, so I plan to…

Anecdotal case study involving a community of about a hundred enthusiasts: many in this community held the opinion you do, which is that something about the mushrooms themselves is unique to the psilocin experience (psilocybin is not always present, and in any case, metabolizes to psilocin).

Then 4-actyl DMT, sometimes call psilacetin, became broadly available. This is a synthetic pro-drug for psilocin, just as psilocybin is a naturally-occurring pro-drug for psilocin.

After that, the opinion that the mushroom per se had anything to do with the experience became very rare. It turns out that psilocin is meaningfully different from, in particular, LSD, 2C-B, and MD(M)A.

There's definitely something special about it. But that something is also present when it comes in vitro, not just in vivo.

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#143

Post by photochemsyn »

Full research article:

https://www.thelancet.com/action/showPdf?pii=S2589-5370%2824...

Study design and methods:

> "All the patients provided written informed consent and after discontinuing any pre-trial antidepressants, enrollees received two oral doses of psilocybin (1 mg or 25 mg) with accompaniment from two experienced therapists for ∼6–8 h, separated by 3 weeks, as well as daily pills (escitalopram 10–20 mg or placebo capsules). Thirty patients were randomised to PT and 29 to ET."

> 'The PT condition consisted of two high-dose (25 mg) treatment sessions with the serotonergic psychedelic psilocybin, administered with support from two study therapists...and daily placebo capsules. The ET condition consisted of daily doses of the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) escitalopram - 10 mg for three weeks followed by 20 mg for a further three weeks—as well as equivalent psychological support including dosing sessions with placebo-like doses of psilocybin (1 mg)."

This is an interesting way to address the placebo issue, giving a noticeable microdose of psilocybin (1 mg) versus the active dose (25 mg) for the non-control group.

Fundamentally I think psilocybin's main overall psychological effect is to push subconscious issues up into the mind's conscious processing space. Large doses can generate visual hallucinations related to those subconscious issues which can be unpleasant, even terrifying, for many people, so that's why caution is warranted. Extremely large doses cause complete dissociation from external sensory input, which is of course very dangerous for the unprepared individual in an uncontrolled situation - an experience unlikely for any herbivore to want to repeat, hence the evolutionary selection pressure for biosynthesis of such compounds by plants and fungi.

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#144

Post by feoren »

phoronixrly wrote: post #137
hackernewds wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you take it in a controlled environment like the study suggests? Every time serious conversation of medical progress comes up, it's polluted by naysayers with anecdata about how they took it while raving beside a live volcano. We need to give psychedelics a fair chance, and sure after we can discount them. The article suggests at scale there is potential

In my experience (this thread, too), the conversation gets polluted by people that swear by their self-medication and call more cautious people naysayers.

How come every time we try to have a conversion, it always ends up all "point counterpoint" and "personal experience with the topic" and "differing personal experience" and "discussion of how those experiences relate to the topic"!? EVERY TIME!

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#145

Post by dimal »

DiscourseFan wrote: post #82

Ok like most of you I’ve taken psychedelic drugs. I’ve had bad experiences sure, but I’m fine now. The issue is that what people generally say, like, “oh sometimes you need to encounter your demons,” maybe that will be temporarily traumatizing—in general people recover from that. The real issues are…more complex. More complex than any diagnoses in the DSM can cover. The brain is very complicated, and everyone’s brain…

> we do not know, really, what goes on in there when you take a drug like Psilocybin

FYI, same goes for SSRIs. The scientific consensus is that the serotonin deficiency theory of depression was wrong. When SSRIs actually work, we still don’t know why.

I’ve had bad trips, too. Very bad, but I still think that psilocybin (in a controlled, supportive setting) is a better bet. My bad trips were all due to being in bad settings and being completely unprepared for what could go wrong. I was young and dumb and just fucking around. But tripping in positive supportive settings was incredibly helpful. And if we do find a way to do this right, then people don’t have to take drugs for the rest of their lives. Psychiatric drugs are generally lifelong sentences, and negative side effects tend to compound over time, which often leads to polypharmacy, and more side effects.

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#146

Post by hackernewds »

erie wrote: post #59
bitcurious wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can psilocybin restore the mojo, or are you just commenting on the downside of SSRIs?

One dude recounted how psilocybin helped him have the best experience with the happy ending , as being out of this world, but the timing was perfect, not sure if it was 'How to Change Your Mind | | Netflix, or another one there.

happy ending?

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#147

Post by bugbuddy »

DiscourseFan wrote: post #82

Ok like most of you I’ve taken psychedelic drugs. I’ve had bad experiences sure, but I’m fine now. The issue is that what people generally say, like, “oh sometimes you need to encounter your demons,” maybe that will be temporarily traumatizing—in general people recover from that. The real issues are…more complex. More complex than any diagnoses in the DSM can cover. The brain is very complicated, and everyone’s brain…

> Ok like most of you I’ve taken psychedelic drugs.

I would like to see some actual data because my assumption has always been that most people have never tried any. I personally have not had any. I have always subscribed to the slippery slope theory of vice.

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#148

Post by imwillofficial »

DiscourseFan wrote: post #82

Ok like most of you I’ve taken psychedelic drugs. I’ve had bad experiences sure, but I’m fine now. The issue is that what people generally say, like, “oh sometimes you need to encounter your demons,” maybe that will be temporarily traumatizing—in general people recover from that. The real issues are…more complex. More complex than any diagnoses in the DSM can cover. The brain is very complicated, and everyone’s brain…

“Like most of you”

“Objection, assuming facts not in evidence”

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#149

Post by hackernewds »

jorvi wrote: post #86
striking wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psylocybin? Easily? You have to put effort into making an experience with psylocybin meaningful and helpful. It could go wrong very easily, especially for those who are in a difficult situation or headspace. (Speaking from experience.) As for SSRIs? Safe, effective, with a handful of annoying side effects. Straightforward to use, low potential for misuse, requires sustained use for any intended effects. A doctor who…

> Psylocybin? Easily? Err.. no? This is from the Dutch National Institute for Public Health and the Environment: https://www.rivm.nl/bibliotheek/rapporten/340001001.pdf Page 19 onward has the charts. What do do we find at the very low end in terms of chronic and acute toxicity? Shrooms (“paddos”) and LSD. It always blows my mind how anti-drug people will do a handwavey gesture to the authority of institutes like the…

toxicity is the least of _psychoactive_ drugs problems

Re: Psilocybin bests SSRI for major depression in first long-term comparison

#150

Post by DiscourseFan »

hackernewds wrote: post #129
DiscourseFan wrote: post #82

Ok like most of you I’ve taken psychedelic drugs. I’ve had bad experiences sure, but I’m fine now. The issue is that what people generally say, like, “oh sometimes you need to encounter your demons,” maybe that will be temporarily traumatizing—in general people recover from that. The real issues are…more complex. More complex than any diagnoses in the DSM can cover. The brain is very complicated, and everyone’s brain…

Did you take it in a controlled environment like the study suggests? Every time serious conversation of medical progress comes up, it's polluted by naysayers with anecdata about how they took it while raving beside a live volcano. We need to give psychedelics a fair chance, and sure after we can discount them. The article suggests at scale there is potential

In the pre-modern world people had a very different relationship to death and there wasn’t anything like anxiety as its experienced today. Psychedelics are essentially an attempt to bring someone back to a more “authentic” experience of life before technological controls settled in. Perhaps its better to take the chance? I think so, but I want others to recognize it as a genuine risk that is truly unpredictable and not a personal failing on the part of the user.
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