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Project Hammer: reduce collusion in the Canadian grocery sector

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Re: Project Hammer: reduce collusion in the Canadian grocery sector

#141

Post by _yb2s »

saghm wrote: post #72
juujian wrote: post #2

I'm sure there is a theory of how this would reduce prices - what is it? Real estate markets became infinitely more transparent over the last couple of years, to the extent that the data is used to train data scientist. The result? Speculators entered the market at it's messed up.

Is speculation as much of a concern for groceries? Real estate is an asset you can hold onto for a while, but I feel like buying up groceries just means you'll have a lot of expired food pretty soon if you can't find a buyer.

I'm feeling bearish on raw salmon

Re: Project Hammer: reduce collusion in the Canadian grocery sector

#142

Post by smbullet »

munificent wrote: post #136
smbullet wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your premise is wrong. The point of a free market is to allow supply and demand to accurately determine pricing. It is not a desired effect of the free market for production costs to always correlate or even be close to the price of goods or services. Changes in supply and/or demand can cause costs and prices to trend in opposite directions.

I would argue that the "point" of a free market is that it's a system where participants find it worth participating because they reach their own goals while not having to agree on what the point is with any other participant.

I 100% agree but unfortunately most people outright reject the moral argument

Re: Project Hammer: reduce collusion in the Canadian grocery sector

#143

Post by VancouverMan »

jfil wrote: post #107
chaostheory wrote: post #79

Isn’t the root of the problem Canadian protectionism? By law, it’s near impossible to have new (foreign) competitors in the Canadian market. Same for industries like telecom.

I believe one of the key issues is anaemic anti-monopoly laws and enforcement. The grocery sector in Canada is very healthy and innovative, even without foreign entrants. It's just that any successful small chains get eaten up by the giants - "Adonis" got bought by Metro, "Farm Boy" got bought by Sobeys and "T&T" got bought by Loblaws. Any new threat gets eaten up by the big players.

From what I remember of my occasional pre-acquisition visits to those chains, they certainly weren't competing on price.

Their drawing power was due to offering ethnic and/or specialty foods (Middle Eastern and Mediterranean products for Adonis, Asian products for T&T, fresh products for Farm Boy) that weren't as common at the more established supermarkets.

I remember being surprised at how expensive items generally were at those chains compared to the more established chains I tended to shop at at the time.

For a customer like me seeking low prices, those smaller chains weren't viable or practical competitors to the larger chains. I'd only end up there as a last resort, typically while travelling and facing time constraints.

Re: Project Hammer: reduce collusion in the Canadian grocery sector

#144

Post by seabass-labrax »

bigthymer wrote: post #138
seabass-labrax wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that matter except as a philosophical question? The point of a free market in practice is to ensure that sale values are correlated with, and reasonably close to, production costs. If an ostensibly free market is not producing competition which causes that to happen, it's a problem for society; then, it is society's prerogative to use whatever means appropriate to fix it. That could include, depending on the ide…

> The point of a free market in practice is to ensure that sale values are correlated with, and reasonably close to, production costs. Some free markets result in natural monopolies so they don't always cause sales values to trend to production costs. I believe the scenario you are thinking about is "perfect competition". A free market results in perfect competition when a number of other conditions are met, includin…

Thank you; that's exactly the term I was looking for!

Re: Project Hammer: reduce collusion in the Canadian grocery sector

#146

Post by VancouverMan »

dfxm12 wrote: post #81
TeeMassive wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know the collusion is bad when a government enterprise can be two times cheaper.

You seem to be implying that a public enterprise can't compete so well against private enterprise on price by definition. Why do you think this?

[flagged]

Re: Project Hammer: reduce collusion in the Canadian grocery sector

#147

Post by 486sx33 »

It’s pretty simple 1. Land area is huge in Canada, you can’t build a startup distribution network at scale and be efficient (ask target) 2. Interprovincial trade barriers 3. Everything has to have the French language printed on it - even if the closest supplier to Alberta is Montana, you can’t just import stuff without different inspection and packaging. This centralizes everything imported in Canada to things like the Toronto distribution center of which most foodstuffs only increase in cost the further across Canada from Toronto you get 4. Smaller grocery stores have tried, and the reasons above, plus the massive amounts of corporate welfare that companies like sobeys and loblaws get make the market unbalanced and unfriendly to competition.

Re: Project Hammer: reduce collusion in the Canadian grocery sector

#148

Post by vizzier »

icegreentea2 wrote: post #133
jlos wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada is intentionally setup to produce oligopolies as a defense against large American companies: "Canada was, in a lot of ways, built on monopolies — think about the Hudson’s Bay Company or Canadian Pacific Rail. Canada has always feared that if we don’t let our homegrown companies get huge, we’ll get swamped by American competitors. That’s why there’s a tension between Canadian politicians, who often say they’re…

I don't think the temporary foreign worker program makes up 7% of the Canadian population (that'd be like 2.7 million people). To be fair it's actually very annoying to find what the actual number is, but this study covering up to 2022 indicates that the number is probably no higher than 1 million ( https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/36-28-0001/2023010/artic... ).

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/co...

Probably the most up to date we'd get. I think your numbers are about right at around 1 million for temporary workers and students combined.

Re: Project Hammer: reduce collusion in the Canadian grocery sector

#149

Post by slothtrop »

jfil wrote: post #107
chaostheory wrote: post #79

Isn’t the root of the problem Canadian protectionism? By law, it’s near impossible to have new (foreign) competitors in the Canadian market. Same for industries like telecom.

I believe one of the key issues is anaemic anti-monopoly laws and enforcement. The grocery sector in Canada is very healthy and innovative, even without foreign entrants. It's just that any successful small chains get eaten up by the giants - "Adonis" got bought by Metro, "Farm Boy" got bought by Sobeys and "T&T" got bought by Loblaws. Any new threat gets eaten up by the big players.

Bought out is one way to put it, selling out is another. We're a nation of sell-outs.
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