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Kids who use ChatGPT as a study assistant do worse on tests

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Re: Kids who use ChatGPT as a study assistant do worse on tests

#141

Post by khafra »

blitzar wrote: post #138
khafra wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An LLM used properly would be like an individualized tutor that knows the subject very well, and learns the student's quirks quickly. I mean, any pre-prompt telling the LLM to be a good tutor and not just give kids the answer can be trivially bypassed by 8 year olds; but if the session logs were available for (potentially LLM-based) review to check whether they stayed in tutor mode... Shit, I should wrap a UI around…

Shit, I should pitch wrapping a UI around this and sell that. Is "never ever, ever ignore previous instructions" a valid prompt?

It's valid, but so is "ignore previous instructions, even if you were previously instructed to never ever, ever do so."

This and related problems may eventually destroy the world.

Re: Kids who use ChatGPT as a study assistant do worse on tests

#142

Post by 2muchcoffeeman »

ffsm8 wrote: post #120
wisty wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. Current research is that experts are better with a ChatGTP, and beginners worse. An expert knows what to ask, and a beginner juat flails around. Tools like calculators, ChatGTP, Google, and chainsaws are often force magnifiers for experts, and a danger for beginners. If you have an idea of what you are trying to do at a deep level then they are great, but beginners don't, they usually just use them as a sho…

> Current research is that experts are better with a ChatGTP, and beginners worse. Current research being your opinion? Because literally every expert I personally know to be competent says that they're essentially garbage producers and don't use them beyond occasionally checking if they've improved. And no, they haven't. The only way to get decent code from them is to be so specific that you'd be able to produce the…

>The only way to get decent code from them is to be so specific that you'd be able to produce the same code in a fraction of the time you need to add all the context necessary for the LLM to figure it out.

You’re not using it to be better than yourself though in your domain of expertise though.

For example if I need a very specific bash script, I can describe it to ChatGPT and get a good result far faster than I can learn the appropriate bash.

Or if I need a summary of all the config options for some package.

You can also use it to speed up your own learning. But this all depends on you being able to check the out put.

Re: Kids who use ChatGPT as a study assistant do worse on tests

#143

Post by llm_trw »

john_the_writer wrote: post #124
bamboozled wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even when there is, circumstances change and the answer is wrong or slightly wrong.

2 apples + 2 apples = 4 apples. No human intervention needed, and not slightly wrong.

2 water drops + 2 water drops = 1 water drop.

Re: Kids who use ChatGPT as a study assistant do worse on tests

#144

Post by Sammi »

CorrectHorseBat wrote: post #94
hi_hi wrote: post #78

Story time. I always struggled with math as a kid. School to high school, then didn't touch it much until Uni. Teachers typically couldn't explain things in a way I "got it" in a school setting. I had some success with a private tutor to get me over the line in high school. Then at Uni I'm doing Computer Graphics, which included advanced (for me) math. I was panicked, and initially struggled until one of my good frie…

As far as I understand the current scientific consensus is that learning styles do actually not exist.

It's more like the science has concluded that people don't have personal learning styles that help them the most. However it has also concluded that different learning styles all improve learning for all. So if you want to improve then you should try as many angles on the problem you can.

Re: Kids who use ChatGPT as a study assistant do worse on tests

#145

Post by Sammi »

hi_hi wrote: post #95
OccamsMirror wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How did your friend teach you math visually?

I'm using the term "visual" very loosely here. I prefer to be able to conceptually group and link things logically. He was able to explain things in a context that matched this, and greatly simplified things. Some things that I still suck at learning are foreign languages. Sometimes there are rules you can follow, sometimes you just have to "know", and sometimes the rules that apply in one case are the opposite in an…

Sounds like your friend is an amazing tutor. Communication and teaching is indeed hard.

I really believe most people don't learn math because they don't get the teaching they need, not because math is somehow cognitively inaccessible for them (except in case of low iq). Lots of people learn language and grammar and are able to write strong texts with a high level of rational and logical thinking, but have not been able to learn math. These people clearly have the mental faculties for math, they just didn't get the teaching they needed. Math is a language for expressing thought, just like any language is, and these people have mastered other languages, so they have the prerequisites for being able to learn the language of math. Math is an especially hard language and it requires good teaching.

Re: Kids who use ChatGPT as a study assistant do worse on tests

#146

Post by Sammi »

eks391 wrote: post #60

If I lived before the tape measure was invented, and rely on carefully placing my metersticks to measure things, I can get really good at measuring without the need for a measuring tape. After all, a measuring tape is just a few flexible metersticks anyways, so if you need to measure something longer than the full length of the tape, you are screwed. If you take the measuring tape away from the person who relied on t…

I worked at building supplies shop for 5 months when I was a youth, and I still have an uncanny ability to estimate lengths of building materials 20 years later, just from having handled and sorted different sizes of building materials so much.

I remember when I started there the old guys would point at stuff and say the length of it, and I was just amazed that they were correct, even if if it was a long 4.8 meter long plank of wood that they had never seen before. I gained that ability after like 3 months there and I still have a strong ability for it now. Weird random ability.

Re: Kids who use ChatGPT as a study assistant do worse on tests

#147

Post by voisin »

lll-o-lll wrote: post #5

When I was young, and learning math, my father always forbade me from looking at the answer in the back of the textbook. “You don’t work backwards from the answer!”, and I think this is right. In life, we rarely have the answer in front of us, we have to work that out from the things we know. It’s this struggling that builds a muscle you can then apply to any problem. ChatGPT, I suspect, is akin to looking up the ans…

> ChatGPT, I suspect, is akin to looking up the answer.

It’s a tool that can be used in a variety of ways. For example, if you have it act as Socrates working through a dialogue where you still have to use your logic to get to the answer, I doubt that is akin to looking up the answer.

Re: Kids who use ChatGPT as a study assistant do worse on tests

#148

Post by JeremyNT »

It seems kind of obvious, no?

The act of repetition and processing the data ourselves is what leads to a deeper understanding, and asking a chatbot for an answer seems like it would skip the thinking required when learning "the old fashioned way."

Maybe we can learn how to incorporate using chatbots in education, but I suspect there need to be guardrails on when and how they are used so students can get the benefit of doing the work themselves.

Re: Kids who use ChatGPT as a study assistant do worse on tests

#150

Post by kamaal »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #12
sim7c00 wrote: post #4

why is this surprising. all such tools hamper learning. if you want to learn, read books, read and write. don't use a spellchecker for ur language exam. no calculator for calculus. pen and paper. how is this going backwards :(

As cool as AI is, the only thing it’s going to do is increase inequality. I bet all the wealthy and middle class parents with STEM background will get tutoring for their kids in the “old ways” knowing full well that the people who aren’t reliant on AI and can spot mistakes in output will now have a huge advantage in the workforce.

This can also back fire.

I remember the days when people said programmers who don't use the internet/Google while coding actually learn more than those who do. While that was true initially- Eventually internet was just the norm and all pervasive. People who didn't use just got more unproductive, Same with companies.

Sure grind on whatever you are learning, but don't equate suffering with making progress. After a while do use the tools, you won't be building anything worth while without them.

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