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Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

blog.cryptographyengineering.com

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Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#141

Post by icepat »

tamimio wrote: post #9

It’s not encrypted by default, and even if it were encrypted, you should never trust any connected device with anything important. That being said, Telegram is hands down the best communication platform right now. It is feature-rich, with features implemented years ago that are only now being added to other platforms. It has normal chatting/video calls, groups, channels, and unlimited storage in theory, all for free.…

What's in Telegram that you don't see in Signal? Honest question, I only use Signal rather than Telegram.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#142

Post by KennyBlanken »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #125
alerighi wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well of course, but this is a feature of Telegram. It's the only messaging app where messages are stored on the cloud. This of course has security implications, but also allows you to have a big number of chats without wasting your device memory like WhatsApp does, or having to delete old conversations, and allows you to access your chats from any device. By the way you can also set a password to log in from another…

But that's literally the entire point of this article. That is, in this day and age, when people talk about "secure messaging apps" they are usually implying end-to-end encryption, which Telegram most certainly is not for the vast majority of usages.

Also, iMessage is very secure...but then all your stuff is backed up on iCloud servers unless you specifically disable it. That includes all your iCloud encryption keys and plaintext messages.

Worse, iPhones immediately start backing up to iCloud when set up for a new user - the only way to keep your network passwords and all manner of other stuff from hitting iCloud servers is to set the phone up with no network connection or even a SIM card installed.

Did I mention there's no longer a SIM slot, so you can't even control that?

And that iPhones by default if they detect a 'weak' wifi network will switch to cellular, so you can't connect the phone to a sandboxed wifi network?

You shouldn't have to put your phone in a faraday cage to keep it from uploading plaintext versions of your private communications and network passwords.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#143

Post by NayamAmarshe »

dataflow wrote: post #33

Does anyone have any reason to believe that Telegram's E2EE doesn't have a backdoor? Because if not, then I fail to see why it matters whether the E2EE even exists in the first place.

Pavel did mention that investigation agencies tried to lure Telegram developers to use certain open source libraries.

It's no wonder why WhatsApp and other apps don't face much heat from the government, they're already with the government.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#144

Post by tamimio »

qskousen wrote: post #108
tamimio wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Knowing someone's phone number is enough to potentially compromise it. Sophisticated methods can involve zero-click attacks, where just sending you an SMS that you won’t even see can lead to a compromised device. You can check how Tucker got his Signal conversation exposed. Matrix is far better in terms of security than Signal, but Matrix is far behind compared to Telegram features.

That's a good point. I looked into using Matrix before I switched to Signal, but the user experience just in creating an account was pretty abysmal, at least at the time. As I was recommending it to non-tech people, I ended up going with Signal.

> but the user experience just in creating an account was pretty abysmal

I agree it was, probably better now, but for the average person, it’s too much to “process” compared to just adding your phone number and signing up.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#145

Post by Timber-6539 »

Reads like a hit piece on Telegram from a crypto expert who couldn't be bothered to explain in more than one paragraph why the app he is calling not an encrypted app (according to how he personally thinks everyone refers to when talking about encryption) actually uses some encryption technology that he's not exactly sure of but suspects is insecure.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#146

Post by _niki_s_ »

yarg wrote: post #87
lxgr wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes: End-to-end encryption is technically quite difficult, but politically and legally feasible (at least currently, at least in most countries). Simply not cooperating with law enforcement is technically moderately difficult, but politically and legally impossible. Between a difficult and an impossible option, the rational decision is to pick the difficult one.

Is there a nice solution for multiparty (n >= 3) end-to-end encryption?

simplex.chat

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#147

Post by tsimionescu »

EGreg wrote: post #126
tsimionescu wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the question of balancing privacy and security, there are in fact solutions, but you have to get away from the idea of a centralized police force / centralized government, and think in terms of a free market of agencies, that can decrypt limited evidence only with a warrant and only if they provide a good reason. The warrant could be due to an AI at the edge flagging stuff, but the due process must be followed a…

Have you read the article I link to in that point? After you read it, you'll have a better idea, and then if you have a specific point, we can discuss.

I read it now, and I saw nothing at all about a free market of LEAs, either police or intelligence agencies. It's only speaking about some silly idea of filming every private scene but relying on magic encryption with keys that are stored... Somewhere?... And somehow the keys to decrypt these most private moments are only accessible when it would be nice to do so. It's clearly not a serious idea, so it gives me a good idea how wild the speculation goes about the broader trends.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#148

Post by sundarurfriend »

kitkat_new wrote: post #2

The worst thing is that almost every non-techie who uses Telegram thinks Telegram in general is e2ee.

Not a single person I know who uses Telegram cares about or thinks of it as e2ee. Whether "techie" or "non-techie" (whatever the definition of that is). People use it because it has a nice interface, was one of the first to have good "sticker" message support (yes, a lot of people care about that kind of stuff), and of course because of the good old network effect.

It's only on HN I ever see people set up Telegram as some supposed uber-secure private app for Tor users and then demolish that strawman gleefully.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#149

Post by sundarurfriend »

icepat wrote: post #141
tamimio wrote: post #9

It’s not encrypted by default, and even if it were encrypted, you should never trust any connected device with anything important. That being said, Telegram is hands down the best communication platform right now. It is feature-rich, with features implemented years ago that are only now being added to other platforms. It has normal chatting/video calls, groups, channels, and unlimited storage in theory, all for free.…

What's in Telegram that you don't see in Signal? Honest question, I only use Signal rather than Telegram.

People.

Re: Is Telegram really an encrypted messaging app?

#150

Post by 3np »

alerighi wrote: post #118
bryanlarsen wrote: post #34

Try the mud puddle test: log into your account on a new device using the password recovery flow. Can you see your old messages? If the answer is yes then law enforcement can too. https://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonykosner/2012/08/05/how-se...

Well of course, but this is a feature of Telegram. It's the only messaging app where messages are stored on the cloud. This of course has security implications, but also allows you to have a big number of chats without wasting your device memory like WhatsApp does, or having to delete old conversations, and allows you to access your chats from any device. By the way you can also set a password to log in from another…

> It's the only messaging app where messages are stored on the cloud.

Instagram. FB Messenger. Skype. LINE. KakaoTalk. Discord. Slack. Teams. iMessage.

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