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Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

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Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#141

Post by psychlops »

tail_exchange wrote: post #44
psychlops wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are certainly already on Signal, but Signal has end-to-end encryption so cannot supply information other than meta information to authorities.

This would imply that just E2EEing everything would give you a free pass not to moderate anything, which seems very naive. I doubt the judges would care about their self-imposed technological limitations.

I agree with you, but also sympathize with the technical issues of moderating encrypted information. Thinking a bit about it, there would need to be a global man in the middle or a requirement for all applications to decrypt/re-encrypt centrally for moderation.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#142

Post by blackeyeblitzar »

dns_snek wrote: post #107
itohihiyt wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is telegram wasn't cooperating with authorities in the jurisdictions in which it was operating; be that moderation, interception, etc.

It's incorrect to say that they weren't cooperating with authorities at all. In the EU, Telegram blocked access to certain channels that the EU deemed to be Russian disinformation, for example.

Really? That’s a really disappointing example of censorship. The state has no business judging the truth.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#144

Post by matheusmoreira »

NayamAmarshe wrote: post #106
kelsey98765431 wrote: post #51

> jpost.com > • 5 hours ago > Pavel Durov, Telegram founder, arrested by France following warrant - The Jerusalem Post > The alleged offenses include: terrorism, narcotic supply, fraud, money laundering and receiving stolen goods. For those unaware, all channel on telegram are NOT ENCRYPTED. They are stored in plaintext on telegram servers. All chats that are not 'secret chat' mode (single device to single device) ar…

> They are stored in plaintext on telegram servers FYI, this is a totally misleading and false claim. Telegram uses the MTProto 2.0 Cloud algorithm for non-secret chats[1][2]. In fact, it uses a split-key encryption system and the servers are all stored in multiple jurisdictions. So even Telegram employees can't decrypt the chats, because you'd need to compromise all the servers at the same time. Telegram's algorithm…

> Compared to other apps like WhatsApp with claims of E2EE and no body of verification and validation.

We do have at least some empirical evidence that WhatsApp is properly encrypted. WhatsApp's cryptography has made judges in my country foam at the mouth with rage so hard they ordered retaliatory nation wide blocks of the service at least twice.

People are right to distrust Meta but I for one am glad that everyone I know is using WhatsApp. I also have Signal and Matrix but a grand total of zero people message me through those.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#145

Post by d0mine »

This is how censorship works in developed democracies. Telegram was the last platform where point of views different from sanctioned by the powers that be could be expressed (to a limit--it is still in app store after all). You've done nothing for dissidents until you are charged with CP.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#146

Post by NayamAmarshe »

mlyle wrote: post #127
NayamAmarshe wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is effectively plaintext Everything's effectively plaintext then. Plaintext: refers to data that is transmitted or stored unencrypted. None of which Telegram does.

Data that is transmitted or stored along with the keys is effectively plaintext, which Telegram does. The data is effectively plaintext on my device, at Telegram, and on the group members' devices, even if it is not plaintext in-between. Data I send to a website over TLS is effectively plaintext on my computer and on the other side; in transit, it is not. It all comes down to your threat model. Encryption does not pr…

> stored along with the keys

It's not. They use a split-key encryption system so it's not exactly the same as storing the keys where the data is.

> It all comes down to your threat model. Encryption does not protect information from entities who hold the keys to decrypt that information.

I agree, which is why I'll say that the bottom line is:

Are auditable E2EE algorithms stronger in security than cloud encryption? Yes. Is MTProto 2.0 Cloud Encryption plaintext? No.

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#148

Post by devman0 »

unsupp0rted wrote: post #130
devman0 wrote: post #99

A lot of really terrible takes in this comment section. Telegram didn't have encrypted groups by default, and telegram possessed a lot of content on their servers that they had been made aware was illegal and didn't cooperate. Nothing more, nothing less. The comparisons to other providers is off base because either other providers are cooperating more when they possess actionable, unencrypted information and taking s…

> Nothing more, nothing less. A lot more and a lot less than that. Arresting this CEO in France is largely a political decision, not a politically neutral enforcement action against the Telegram platform. They don’t perform the same enforcement against other entities they could go after.

He appears to be a French citizen, so who else should be doing the arresting?

Re: Arrest of Pavel Durov, Telegram CEO, charges of terrorism, fraud, child porn

#150

Post by jstummbillig »

poisonborz wrote: post #42
mazambazz wrote: post #29

This seems like the Kim Dotcom situation again. Why are these service providers being punished for what their users do? Specifically, these service providers? Because Google, Discord, Reddit, etc. all contain some amount of CSAM (and other illegal content), yet I don't see Pichai, Citron, or Huffman getting indicted for anything. Hell, then there's the actual infrastructure providers too. This seems like a slippery s…

You really ask why? This isn't about serving justice - it's statuary example for anyone trying to run an unmoderated platform.

IANAL and not that familiar with the legal situation, but if we assume that running a platform of this type requires you, by law, to moderate such a platform and he fails to do that, idk what we are talking about. Yes, he would clearly be breaking the law. Why would that not get prosecuted in the completely normal, boring way that I would hope all law breaking will eventually be prosecuted?

If you are alleging that there's comparable, specific and actual legal infringements on the part of meta/google, that somehow go uninvestigated and unpunished, free free to point to that.

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