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No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

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Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#141

Post by ath3nd »

RamblingCTO wrote: post #90
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is all of those acts take you out of flow state. I don't want and I can't randomly brainstorm when I am deep into coding. Even if I have to go take a quick water I would try to do it as quick as possible to continue with the problem I am focused on and I couldn't pay attention to the random conversation or brainstorming at a cooler.

Maybe "flow state" is not the most important thing?

For a developer, arguably "flow state" is arguably the most important thing. Provided, that is, that requirements are clear and people are in sync what should be worked on.

What do you think is the most important, if not flow state?

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#143

Post by tankenmate »

Quothling wrote: post #130
rethab wrote: post #29

We cannot forget that we also loose something with working remotely (say more than 75% of the time) and that is the occasional bumping into each other at the water cooler or in the morning when coming in. These are situations you can artificially create by scheduling calls to socialize etc, but that is still not comparable with being in an actual office. By categorically saying no to quick calls, you're isolating you…

I agree with your take on working remote and how it can hinder spontaneous "group creativity", though I'd argue that the loss of the smoke break did a lot more damage to this than remote work. With that out of the way I just want to say that in decades I've never had a "quick call" which wasn't a humongous waste of my time. It's always some project manager or business process or whatever person who wants to talk abou…

Indeed, when I want to do a "quick call" to get pointers on something, or to clarify possible implications of technical choices I'll always send a message on a platform / channel that can be muted with some text like "i need your input on X, give me a call when it suits". That way the callee can chose to mute and/or choose a time that doesn't interrupt their workflow, but also give them the opportunity to contemplate the issue. This way the other person is in the right frame of mind to get to the meat of the issue, get a quicker call, and most importantly get the right direction / decision without hampering productivity.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#144

Post by goralph »

sensanaty wrote: post #123
rethab wrote: post #29

We cannot forget that we also loose something with working remotely (say more than 75% of the time) and that is the occasional bumping into each other at the water cooler or in the morning when coming in. These are situations you can artificially create by scheduling calls to socialize etc, but that is still not comparable with being in an actual office. By categorically saying no to quick calls, you're isolating you…

First off: Are water coolers even a thing still? At least in NL we just bring our own bottles and use the tap to refill it :p Second, I've not once in my life had a productive "water cooler" conversation. Not a single time, it's pretty much always just socialization about literally anything other than work. Same with lunch, people don't want to talk about work during their free time, and they don't. I've certainly ne…

I’ve had plenty of productive “water cooler” conversations. Especially with people from other teams, as we don’t interact with each other much. Cross pollinating ideas in a large organisation is conducive to spontaneous creativity.

However, neither of our statements are very useful as they are just anecdotes, a result of our personal experiences.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#146

Post by onion2k »

The way to stop these distractions is not to set a bunch of rules, but to document things in clear and discoverable ways that people can search to find what they need. No one wants to interrupt; people do that because it's the quickest and easiest way to find an answer. If you make something else the quickest way they'll use that instead.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#147

Post by liveoneggs »

For the chat issues brought up in this silly rant the most effective solution I've found is to create a culture of public chat rooms with your entire team, instead of individual direct messages.

"Quick Call" people are a personality type so they are not going to change.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#148

Post by thyristan »

axitanull wrote: post #75
rethab wrote: post #29

We cannot forget that we also loose something with working remotely (say more than 75% of the time) and that is the occasional bumping into each other at the water cooler or in the morning when coming in. These are situations you can artificially create by scheduling calls to socialize etc, but that is still not comparable with being in an actual office. By categorically saying no to quick calls, you're isolating you…

Why is it that every time someone tried to push RTO agenda in a thread, "water cooler talk" has always been pushed like it is one of most important thing in a job? Is "water cooler talk" the new "open office layout"?

> Is "water cooler talk" the new "open office layout"?

Yes. It used to be that "water cooler talk" was considered an unproductive waste of time. But for people pushing an RTO agenda, it suddenly became the go-to argument for RTO. Very often, the same PHBs use this to push RTO, who back in the day complained about people doing "water cooler talk" on company time.

At the same time, open office or cubicle layouts are proven to be detrimental to work output, concentration, health and happiness. But same as RTO, it is not about any of that, nor about collaboration. It is about PHBs fearing their loss of purpose and control.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#149

Post by probably_wrong »

sensanaty wrote: post #123
rethab wrote: post #29

We cannot forget that we also loose something with working remotely (say more than 75% of the time) and that is the occasional bumping into each other at the water cooler or in the morning when coming in. These are situations you can artificially create by scheduling calls to socialize etc, but that is still not comparable with being in an actual office. By categorically saying no to quick calls, you're isolating you…

First off: Are water coolers even a thing still? At least in NL we just bring our own bottles and use the tap to refill it :p Second, I've not once in my life had a productive "water cooler" conversation. Not a single time, it's pretty much always just socialization about literally anything other than work. Same with lunch, people don't want to talk about work during their free time, and they don't. I've certainly ne…

> First off: Are water coolers even a thing still? At least in NL we just bring our own bottles and use the tap to refill it :p

I know of two cases where office water coolers are super useful: in areas with high temperatures where cold water is much better that the warm water coming out of the tap, and (if your model supports it) for getting a cup of hot water for tea. I've also seen them used in areas where the tap water tastes funny, but that's more of a patch.

Re: No "Hello", No "Quick Call", and No Meetings Without an Agenda

#150

Post by mewpmewp2 »

ath3nd wrote: post #138
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately as of lately my professional life has been terrible for flow state due to various reasons related to working in a corporation. So I might consider switching jobs. Interruptions, blockers, depending on others, etc. But I love being in flow state, luckily I can still do it with my side projects. With side projects without being interrupted I can easily spend the whole day coding and at the same time build…

> But I love being in flow state, luckily I can still do it with my side projects. With side projects without being interrupted I can easily spend the whole day coding and at the same time building 10x to 100x as much as at a corporation job. Of course it's less realistic in a large company to have it, but I just wish my actual work was like that. Unpopular opinion: a very small team of skilled programmers that have…

I definitely agree with that, and I have been on both sides of the coin, with a little team doing a lot of projects very quickly and also a corporation job where things move very slowly. Also having done so many side projects.

The unfortunate usual thing is though that the jobs that pay a lot usually involve a lot of people. Because when a small group of very productive programmers start out, their business is not proven yet, but when it actually is proven and will start to make a lot of money, there will be a lot of people hired and which breaks what it had initially.

And the more people and teams you put on something the slower the pace will be per developer, for sure.

There are moments in time in a lifecycle for a start up or a business, where there is that golden point, but it always seems temporary.

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