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I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)

jdstillwater.blogspot.com

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Re: I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)

#141
post #137
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the water that's the issue generally - it's the minerals in the water. The article author got lucky this time - when electronics die from water contact, it's usually the minerals bridging connections and creating shorts. Letting the device dry does not remove those shorts. Some places have such hard water (lots of minerals) that evaporated water leaves calcium, limestone and other deposits on the surface of…

A $20 something you are about to throw away is the perfect thing to play games with.

It’s the fire risk that’s the issue not 20$.

Re: I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)

#142

Today I learnt that pure water is not conductive and than tap water is a poor conductor at 120V which I believe is the american standard... What about Europe's 230V ? Would he still have gone in the water to unplug the piano if he was in Europe ?

> Would he still have gone in the water to unplug the piano if he was in Europe?

Given that they did feel tingling, honestly I am not convinced one should follow that example anywhere on earth.

The post also describes that the breaker thing trips when the electricity takes an "some other route than expected" (their words), which I'd say tingling is indicative of: some electricity was being conducted away via the water and, at some point, their foot. Yet the breaker no trip, so either it wasn't a protected circuit or they drew another wrong conclusion based on that aquarium observation which they expected to go differently based on a previously wrong conclusion.

If you can assume the water has a similar conductivity as the tap water in the aquarium (not sure that's a safe assumption after it flooded a room with all sorts of dust and objects in it), and you can assume that your body can handle more electricity than the breaker needs to trip, then a fairly short distance ought to indeed insulate you well enough, but the objective was to get close and turn it off. The post sounded like they based this "I'll do it" opinion basically on the hairdryer-in-aquarium thing which we already know didn't go as expected. To me, the situations "hairdryer runs by itself in water" and "I, standing on a ground, stick my hand near the device's off switch in the water" are two very different things. There could easily have been further unknowns -- and apparently there were since the breaker didn't function in the way that this very post describes it should.

Since moving to Germany I've often noticed wariness around "Halbwissen" (loaning the word since it carries extra connotation), meaning half-knowledge but not in the sense of "you know something about it!"; rather, you kinda know but you don't know the details and that causes overconfidence. That works out until it doesn't

I don't honestly subscribe to that a whole lot: you can't know everything about everything and we use partial knowledge all day long for nearly every topic. Also electricity, I've noticed before a lot of mysticism and fear goes around unnecessarily. So I like the part where experimenting, when done carefully (letting it dry, using a protected circuit, being aware that it might fail and you should observe it first), is encouraged. However, this particular bit about going into the water and "I felt the electricity but everyone cheered me on!" is not what and how you're supposed to do these experiments

Re: I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)

#143
It is because people use heuristics to navigate their lives. Instead of doing complicated engineering reasoning all the time to ensure their safety they learn simple “rules of thumb”. These rules are incorrect in as much as they have both false positives (something which the rule prohibits, but is safe) and false negatives (something which the rule lets you do, but is not safe).

I’m a hobby jeweler and I use an ordinary household microwave to melt copper and silver to cast my projects.[1] At the same time “everybody knows” that you can’t put metal in a microwave.

What gives? Is everybody wrong? Of course not. It is just that the statement “don’t put metal in a microwave” is a simplified form of the true statement which would go something like this “don’t put metal in a microwave, unless you follow these safety precautions, and wear these safety gear, and your crucible is made of the appropriate materials, and your moulds are bone dry and …”. Aint nobody has the time to think about all the caveats and dangers when all they want is to warm their meals. So it is simpler, easier, and safer to tell people the abbreviated form of the rule.

1: here is a video https://youtu.be/Oim2QsDp0rY?si=CZrhg6ux1GfiDWqd

Re: I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)

#144
post #104

The big issue is not the water that will dry if you wait but that the hot water will make something that is glued or something that has two materials that expand different when heated break. There is no amount of letting it dry out or adding rice that will solve if things are apart.

I assume most parts of a toaster are designed to handle a bit of heat

Re: I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)

#145
post #138

I was once involved in a similar (unintentional) experiment with a multi-billion dollar defence radar. A several metres deep underground bunker, containing several 19" racks full of electrical/electronic gear, filled to ground level with a combination of mineralised surface water and mud during a storm. What we wanted to do was cut the power, pump the water out of the bunker ASAP and immediately clean the whole lot w…

It's quite impressive it kept working for that long, and even more amazing someone was capable of saying "no, let's not cut the power, there might be a problem if we do"

Re: I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)

#146
post #140
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, it only assumes that bidets are subjectively better to many people, which they certainly are; it doesn't rely on the assumption of an objective, observer-independent scale of valuation in the way you're describing (bidets aren't an alternative to a regular toilet, and the fact that you think they are is a minor indicator of why it's difficult for even widespread, highly beneficial innovations to become universa…

If given the option, free of charge, to continue using electrified showerheads or using whole-home water heating... how many would continue to use electrified showerheads? The fact that they are only common in poor and impoverished areas, tells you everything you need to know. This argument is a lot like asserting instant-coffee is better than fresh brewed coffee because some people have no alternative choice.

probably most people would continue to use either what they're familiar with or what they think is fancier, with little regard to what they would actually like more—in the same way that many people have opted to live in suburbs where the commute makes them miserable, or drink and smoke heavily despite the impact on their health, or date abusive partners

humans are not automatically strategic. one reason is that they're subject to many kinds of irrationality; the particular species you are currently exhibiting is known as 'the fallacy of affirming the consequent'

a pretty large fraction would continue using electric showers just because they're familiar with them—but that is at best only a very weak argument. we can do better than that by debating their actual advantages and disadvantages, as i did in the linked comment, rather than mindlessly subscribing to vox populi, vox dei

if given the option, free of charge, to install a bidet in your house, would you take it? evidently not, because you don't know what a bidet is or how to use it. the same could be said of most people installing a computer in their house 50 years ago. or many modern innovations today, like a gfci, corningware, and borosilicate oven dishes, some of which have fallen out of use because consumers didn't understand them

using a cellphone instead of a landline was only common in impoverished areas 30 years ago, and even today, having front-door locks that are hard to pick are still only common in impoverished areas. also, speaking lingala is only common in impoverished areas. that's not because there's anything wrong with lingala

finally, as it happens, my wife prefers instant coffee to fresh-brewed coffee

Re: I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)

#147

R&D electrical engineer here! I have to do this sort of thing all the time and can confidently tell you it's pretty normal. The real risk isn't really to the toaster (who cares, it's just a toaster, and even if it starts on fire when you plug it in, you're probably watching it pretty closely). No, it's that you leach lead or other such nasties (sealing rubbers, PCB epoxies, what-have-you) into your dishwasher and sta…

>You, uh, don't want to do that with a toaster. Maybe I'm slow, but what goes wrong if you rinse a toaster with alcohol?

I guess the joke is that it evaporates rather easily and it's rather flammable, especially fumes that are nicely pre-mixed with air for completer combustion. But that's just my guess at what they meant, author should ideally confirm

Re: I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's just soap, it's good for you. Sorry, but I really can't tell - was that sarcasm?

Yes. The point is that it's not just soap but soapy water that has just washed off all kinds of gunk and dirt off your hands or dishes. It's a good idea to rinse it off. But, apparently, that's not the done thing in certain sectors of British society, e.g. see: I wash up like a normal person: I fill a sink with hot water and washing-up liquid, and scrub the dishes in order of what needs the least attention. Glasses n…

Don't you then have soap residue on your glasses, plates, and cutlery? I assume it's probably not a problem for your health to consume trace amounts like that, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't affect the taste of whatever you later eat using them.

Re: I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)

#149
post #136

As a electronics person with microscope-level repair experience: the problem isn't the water, it is what is in it. And it can become an issue weeks later when residues of minerals and detergent combined with current flows corroded your contacts away, leakage current ts flowing in all kinds of unintended places. PCBs are laminated and can do funny things when treated wrongly. Whether that kills the device or not is ha…

> But as a physics teacher he probably has heard about galvanization, oxidation and similar chemical things.. I hope.

As the post says

> I learned two things [...] (2) GFIs only trip off when in bodies of water that are grounded. They won’t work in an aquarium sitting on a lab table, or in a plastic laundry sink with plastic drainpipes, or in a plastic shower with plastic drainpipes.

I'm neither an electrician nor a physics teacher but I knew that these devices looking for ground leakage work only when the electricity leaks to ground (I guess that's what GFI refers to; I know them as aardlekschakelaar, literally: earth leak switch).

That's also why I find it so weird that this teacher describes the functioning as "detects that current is leaking out some other route than expected": it's not like electrons have routing labels you can match against an itinerary. It can very well flow through your body before returning via the normal return wire. Rather, the device detects electricity coming through the ground wire, and so it stands to reason that you need to close the circuit into that ground for it to observe the fault...

Why else do all electrical devices with a metal case or a metal structure have these metal bits connected to ground, if not so that most shorts will lead to the circuit being closed towards ground? Anyone who ever took anything electrical apart has seen these extra cables -- I did last week while cleaning the dehumidifier for example.

I applaud careful experimentation as they did with the hairdryer and, presumably, the toaster (using it on a protected circuit, observing if it works correctly, etc.). But there are also quite a few sentences in this post where my eyebrows moved

Re: I put a toaster in the dishwasher (2012)

#150

It is because people use heuristics to navigate their lives. Instead of doing complicated engineering reasoning all the time to ensure their safety they learn simple “rules of thumb”. These rules are incorrect in as much as they have both false positives (something which the rule prohibits, but is safe) and false negatives (something which the rule lets you do, but is not safe). I’m a hobby jeweler and I use an ordin…

You can also just have a spoon in the microwave too, right? I think It's only from things like crinkles in aluminium foil and the prongs of a fork that produce sparks and arcing inside.
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