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Apple is America's semiconductor problem

semiconductor-digest.com

141–150 of 246 posts

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#141
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few other things jumped out to me: - Automotive's advanced features require chips but not the most advanced chips (by design, for reliability). - Micron's HQ is in the US but has operated globally since 1998 including design. ("Micron really went global in terms of its operations once it acquired the TI DRAM operations in 1998") - TSMC's 90% share of global semi is why Apple can get the exclusive on advanced proces…

> Automotive's advanced features require chips but not the most advanced chips Exactly, and if Matt Stoller was honest he would bring up that point. Most automotive chips use 28nm, 40nm, and 60nm nodes and China has been very competitive in this space now because of existing capacity built from OSAT and AMTP consolidation in China by Taiwanese and Malaysian/Singaporean players like UMC before the 2019 HK protests, Me…

Also probably worth mentioning that a lot of the automotive chip shortages were a result of industry-specific factors:

1) Auto manufacturers incorrectly predicted that the pandemic would result in much lower sales, and reduced their component orders accordingly. When auto sales stayed stronger than expected, they were forced to buy those parts on the open market - reducing the number available to other customers.

2) A couple of major semiconductor manufacturers had incidents at their facilities (most notably, a fire at a Renesas fab) which limited production.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#142
post #69

> Apple buys a far larger share of smartphone and computer semiconductors, given that it accounts for half of global smartphones sales and earns 85% of all smartphones I feel like I'm getting trolled by the author who is citing sales and profits instead of units produced as a metric.

units sold dont matter when the competition is selling $100 smartphones at a loss. The fact that one company is making 85% of the profits in an entire industry as massive as SMARTPHONES should be terrifying, but i guess we don't care about monopolism for some reason

Apple really is an unusual phenomenon--in most other industries, the bulk of the profit is made on mass-market products, while high-end products are able to cater to a niche that is willing to spend much more. In smartphones, however, the highest-end product you can buy is actually quasi-mass-market--there is no Ferrari or Rolex of smartphones, an iPhone is legitimately the best product you can get, and it's within reach of a substantial portion of the buyer's market.

Not sure if this is good or bad, but it's certainly unusual, and it's part of the reason that this "monopoly" question is sometimes confusing--Apple makes by far the most profit despite also selling the highest-end product, and their unit sales, despite being somewhat less than Android, are still in the same ballpark.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given Android has 71% of the worldwide market share it’s difficult to make the argument Apple holds a monopoly on the smartphone market [1]. Even in the US, until about 2020, Android had a higher subscriber base, and there is no reason the situation could not reverse and iOS drop below its July 2023 53% subscriber market share [2]. Moreover, give iPhones are significantly more expensive than comparable Android phones…

As a tagalong to my comment, I really wish Android phone makers would get their act together and give Apple better competition. If the trends of the last ten years hold up, iPhones might actually become a monopoly product at some point. ;)

I am very happy with my 5 year old Xiaomi Android phone.

Not sure what kind of competition is needed to browse the internet, watch YouTube, listen music and occasionally shoot few pics.

On top of that, I have been locked out of my apple account for 2 months when my iPad with the authenticator suddenly died, good thing I had a desktop to use as I could not login in my MBP. Apple just kept sending me emails of them contacting me in two weeks to reset my password and kept not doing it.

And I won't even mention their "privacy" charade. If you forget your MBP password you can reset it in recovery mode and thus access any MBP.

Sure, all your apps get logged off, but you can still open any file.

I hate their products and wish I didn't have to deal with them, but I have to test apps and websites on their hardware.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a tagalong to my comment, I really wish Android phone makers would get their act together and give Apple better competition. If the trends of the last ten years hold up, iPhones might actually become a monopoly product at some point. ;)

> I really wish Android phone makers would get their act together and give Apple better competition Google and Samsung tried and failed. Google with their flagship Pixel line, which just doesn't sell well, so they moved downmarket. Samsung with their Galaxy line, but they're always playing catchup/copycat to Apple. The sad fact is that 1) Google sucks at hardware, 2) Samsung sucks at taste. Apple really has a magical…

The list of innovations that Samsung/Android got to market first and iOS copied is long and one google search away.

People really paint Apple and Android ecosystems in auras that weren't true already a decade ago.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#145
post #139
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I encourage you to start the android company you want to see? I'm confident you can get funding

I think that’s part of the problem - android doesn’t work as a product model, for literally anyone involved. Google would not be doing it if it wasn’t for the advertising business. It’s pretty much the definition of a loss-leader to get people into the ecosystem for things that google can monetize. So android as a product is implicitly, foreverially tiedup with marketing and spyware, because google isn’t onboard othe…

Great comment and great summary of the Android ecosystem.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#146
post #139
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I encourage you to start the android company you want to see? I'm confident you can get funding

I think that’s part of the problem - android doesn’t work as a product model, for literally anyone involved. Google would not be doing it if it wasn’t for the advertising business. It’s pretty much the definition of a loss-leader to get people into the ecosystem for things that google can monetize. So android as a product is implicitly, foreverially tiedup with marketing and spyware, because google isn’t onboard othe…

I mostly agree with your take. Mobile is particularly challenging. I'm optimistic about a hardware only startup succeeding (Framework but for phones), but building your own hardware and your own OS is much harder, I think.

This doesn't negate any of your points

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#147
post #133

Lol, maybe the author should ask himself if we ban Apple will we then see the American semiconductor industry boom and take over the world? If not, then the logic is strenuous at best, you just viscerally hate Apple and want to find reasons to blame it as opposed to doing anything constructive for the American Semiconductor Industry. Something constructive would involve fixing the work ethic of American Semiconductor…

>fixing the work ethic of American Semiconductor Factory employees How do you pinpoint this to be the problem? How are you sure that it's not some narrative used by corporate to excuse outsourcing or putting pressure on wages? I think an industry where technical knowledge was outsourced for cost cutting reasons for decades now is probably having issues because only the managers are left, and they're not productive on…

Anecdotally I have found it faster to order pcbs and get them shipped from China than get them built locally. I’m not just singling out factory workers, they don’t work hard but their managers and multiple higher levels don’t either and I don’t know why. At times I question their motivation to even do business. I also don’t buy that this is a US wide cultural thing, I’ve had excellent on call responses from AWS, heck even my customer experience from Amazon is more prompt than many of the PCB/ Chip vendors, which is why I’m singling out the semi conductor industry, though I’m sure there any many other industries suffering from the same maladies.

My anecdotal experience aside, there have been quite a few news articles about TSMC’s struggle in Arizona that highlights the difference in work ethic: https://restofworld.org/2024/tsmc-arizona-expansion/

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#148
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I'm a little confused by the premise. How would reshoring chip production be easier if Apple weren't out there buying chips? I get that they are buying up all of the TSMC chips in some segments. Doesn't that just create demand for an alternative? I can't cohere the themes of this article.

It's not just TSMC chips. Apple forces other chip manufacturers into exclusive deals to lock out the ability for 3rd party repair to be done cost effectively and reliably. Apple shouldn't be able to control the chip markets as they do. As indicated in the article they create slave labor conditions in a lot of these manufacturers because they're wholly dependent on Apple's whims. This also creates an e-waste problem g…

There’s no “forcing” chip manufacturers into exclusivity deals. Chip vendors want the business, and Apple wants stuff customized for them. Plenty of IP that can be used in general market parts, too. Also, I can guarantee you that there’s a good amount of vendors that would rather not be forced to offer their chips that they provide to Apple on the general market.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#149
post #139
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I encourage you to start the android company you want to see? I'm confident you can get funding

I think that’s part of the problem - android doesn’t work as a product model, for literally anyone involved. Google would not be doing it if it wasn’t for the advertising business. It’s pretty much the definition of a loss-leader to get people into the ecosystem for things that google can monetize. So android as a product is implicitly, foreverially tiedup with marketing and spyware, because google isn’t onboard othe…

[deleted]

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#150
post #146
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that’s part of the problem - android doesn’t work as a product model, for literally anyone involved. Google would not be doing it if it wasn’t for the advertising business. It’s pretty much the definition of a loss-leader to get people into the ecosystem for things that google can monetize. So android as a product is implicitly, foreverially tiedup with marketing and spyware, because google isn’t onboard othe…

I mostly agree with your take. Mobile is particularly challenging. I'm optimistic about a hardware only startup succeeding (Framework but for phones), but building your own hardware and your own OS is much harder, I think. This doesn't negate any of your points

For an even spicier take: GPL has accelerated/worsened this trend, imo. Not out of anything they really did wrong, but actually just by well-intentioned success.

It’s about “code revenue” vs “services revenue”. If I can’t sell you a copy of Office 97, well, obviously that pushes things to the Office 365 model. And the unfortunate reality is that a huge amount of important code is now GPL, which means a huge amount of the world’s codebase is now un-monetizable in that sense. This has fueled a massive push for “alternative revenue”, and the whole google model has been that the "alternative source" is advertising dollars.

Moreover, GPL itself has conditioned people that the right price for software is “free”. And obviously software is not free to produce, nor is the ecosystem of phones conductive to the Linux “hardware bazaar” model in the same way as 1990s era IBM-compatible PCs. [0]

Well, if the only valid price for consumer-facing software is “free”, and a huge amount of the software in the world is now un-monetizeable in the sense of being able to sell a copy of the software to fund your R&D effort… obviously that just pours gas on the fire of the tivo’ization and SaaS revenue models. That is a correct business-development response to the changing market conditions.

GPL has essentially forced the collapse of the traditional “fee for source” or “fee for binary” model. I think it probably would have been out-competed by service revenue eventually anyway, given that consumers obviously prefer “free” to paying money, but basically this is an accelerationism thing whereby GPL has more or less collapsed the entire proprietary-software market (to the extent that many people now view hardware that doesn’t have open drives as being somehow fundamentally bad or illegitimate), driving everyone into the arms of the SaaS providers. It has accelerationism’d us right into tivo’ization.

Big “my neighbor’s cats keep getting eaten by coyotes and he says that he just goes to the shelter and gets another cat and I said it sounds like he’s just feeding shelter cats to coyotes and his daughter started crying” energy. Like GPL literally has been so successful that people think proprietary software is illegitimate… except for the “free” ones backed by advertising dollars.

GPL has been feeding consumers to the coyotes. It doesn't mean they meant to do it, but, functionally by killing fee-for-software models and by conditioning everyone that the only valid price is "free", that's what it's kinda done. Proprietary software still exists... you just don't pay with money anymore.

I am of course human too, I groan at the thought of paying $350/year for a personal jetbrains license or paying $1000 more for an apple laptop than a comparable commodity one... but software costs money to develop and you make your choices about what is worthwhile and which relationships you want to accept enshittification on. My point is just that transactionality (ie, you pay money and receive a service) is actually a good thing, because those services are much less likely to enshittify if it's going to come at the expense of actual paying customers rather than just some livestock waiting to be sheared. It changes the nature of the relationship.

It doesn't mean there aren't bad companies that do enshittification anyway, but if the expectation is pay money => receive good, then obviously you can reasonably hold expectations about the nature of what you're going to receive, vs GPL and proprietary models fostering the "it's free, why are you complaining" mindset. GPL and SaaS models are alike in that respect and GPL has both directly reinforced that mindset, and also pushed far more companies to SaaS far more quickly with its own success.

[0] (Wireless+modems have specific regulatory requirements that are inherently incompatible with open-licensing, it is illegal to release a wireless chipset which is capable of violating local band-regulation requirements, which functionally imposes the requirement that devices listen to the local band to detect weather radar upon bootup to see if they're allowed to use the band in a given locality. This is part of why modern routers are so slow to boot up! And to prevent tampering/replacement, this effectively must be put in a closed blob to pass certification. Which is why projects like OpenWRT are struggling with Wifi 6E/6GHz and other newer hardware - when I checked maybe a year ago, there were zero 6E devices supported. And unfortunately, it is not possible to make a very good phone without wireless connectivity. It literally is one of the most challenging domains to try and go open-license on because the FCC ain't playin'.)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34134905

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Outlawing this "contra-revenue"/ad-supported moel is low-key one of the biggest things the EU could tackle though. Big problem, wide problem.

Granted they're walking down that path with GDPR dismantling a lot of the worst of the surveillance capitalism, and with forcing Android to have actual reasonable OS support lifespans... they are gradually forcing these externalities/defects to be priced in properly. But I think it is explicitly worth stating as an end-goal: transactionality and fee-for-service or fee-for-product is a good thing, because then companies are competing to service customers and not competing for more livestock to be the product.

If you want to stop enshittification, get rid of contra-revenue models. The thing you are paying for, should be profitable to produce at the price you sell it. If you have engineering effort that's shared with other products: fine, amortize/attribute it however makes sense. But if you are selling a widget that costs $10 to produce for $9, on the expectation of $3 of revenue: no, that should be illegal.

If nothing else it's a competition issue, you can't have "honest" firms ever break this situation if you have other companies "dumping" and selling below-actual-cost. It is really no different from any other kind of dumping.

Otherwise, the advertising-supported companies will always be able to out-compete the "honest" companies, so it will always be a race to the bottom.

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anyway, as far as hardware startups specifically: those exist and they just haven't gotten any traction. Fairphone, pinephone, lightphone, etc. These inevitably end up getting very little traction among enthusiasts etc. I don't think the existence of these solves any real problem with the android ecosystem.

Also, ecosystem is a major factor in OS adoption. Like you could go run MenuetOS right now, so why don't you? Ecosystem and network effect and available codebase etc. So these hardware startups have to work within the existing OS ecosystems etc - almost all of these startups are android and the ones that aren't, frankly are doomed. Consumers don't want featurephone or phone-specific app stores in 2024, especially for some niche product with no actual apps released for it. There is very little point to making a custom OS from vxworks or whatever, that's not where the problem lays here.

Similarly: Framework and System76 are attempting to thread that needle of supported hardware+OS configurations on "generic linux". This exists, just not to massive success or fanfare or changes in how the world works. And they're not re-engineering the OS. Even System76/PopOS is based on ubuntu iirc. Jumping to MenuetOS or other completely-new-OS things is a whole other can of worms.

Despite Framework/System76 existing, the world still runs on Windows 11 ad-supported installs or free Linux labor. So I don't know why it would be different for phone hardware+android.

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