Earlier quoted context omitted.
I can sort of see that. The way I saw it explained as them being much lower clock and having a pretty small shared cache. I could see E cores as being great for running background processes and stuff. All the benchmarks seem to show the AMDs with 2/3rd the cores being around the same performance and with similar power draw. I'm not putting them down. I'm just saying it seems gimmicky to say "look at our 20 core!" wit…
It's the megahertz wars all over again!
July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
141–150 of 216 posts
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#142Reminds me of Sudden Northwood Death Syndrome, 2002. Looks like history may be repeating itself, or at least rhyming somewhat. Back then, CPUs ran on fixed voltages and frequencies and only overclockers discovered the limits. Even then, it was rare to find reports of CPUs killed via overvolting, unless it was to an extreme extent --- thermal throttling, instability, and shutdown (THERMTRIP) seemed to occur before act…
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yeah, the 20 core Intels are benchmarking about the same as the 12 core AMD X3Ds. But many people just see 20>12. Either one is more than fine for most people. "Oh wait, it's really an 8 core when it comes to performance [cores]". So yes, should not be an 8 core all together, but like you said about 14 cores, or 12 with the 3D cache. "And I doubt those cores have a higher clock." I'm not sure what we're comparing the…
> I'm not sure what we're comparing them to. They should be capable of higher clock than the E cores. Oh, just higher clocked than the E cores. Yeah that's true, but if you're using that many cores at once you probably only care about total speed. You said 12 core with higher clock versus 8, so I thought you were comparing to the performance cores. > I thought all the AMD cores had the ability to hit the max frequenc…
Interesting. I can't find any info on that. It seems that makes sense though since the 7900X is 50 TDP higher than the 7900X3D.
"Right, but my point is it's misleading to call out higher core count and the advantages of 3D stacking"
Yeah, that makes sense. I didn't realize there was a clock penalty on some of the cores with the 3D cache and that only some cores could use it.
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#144I find it hard to believe that it actually is a microcode issue. Mostly because Intel has way too much motivation to pass it off as a microcode issue, as they can fix a microcode issue for free, by pushing out a patch. If it's an actual hardware issue, then Intel will be forced to actually recall all the faulty CPUs, which could cost them billions. The other reason, is that it took them way too long to give details.…
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
That’s probably where people are mostly likely to understand it. A lot of companies do this, especially while they’re still learning things.
These days people are more likely to see the announcement on YouTube, TikTok, or Twitter.
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Like look at this 20 core processor! Oh wait, it's really an 8 core when it comes to performance. The E cores are about half as fast as the P cores depending on use case, at about 30% of the size. If you have a program that can use more than 8 cores, then that 8P+12E CPU should approach a 14P CPU in speed. (And if it can't use more than 8 cores then P versus E doesn't matter.) (Or if you meant 4P+16E then I don't t…
> If you have a program that can use more than 8 cores, then that 8P+12E CPU should approach a 14P CPU in speed Only if you use work stealing queues or (this is ridiculously unlikely) run multithreaded algorithms that are aware of the different performance and split the work unevenly to compensate.
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
My understanding is that it's screwed up for multiple vendors and chipsets. The boards might say they support it, but there are some updates saying it's not. It seemed extremely hard to find any that actually supported it. It was actually easier to find new Intel boards supporting ECC.
yeah wendell put out a video a few weeks ago exploring a bunch of problems with asrock rack-branded server-market B650 motherboards and basically the ECC situation was exactly what everyone warns about: the various BIOS versions wandered between "works, but doesn't forward the errors", "doesn't work, and doesn't forward the errors", and (excitingly) "doesn't work and doesn't even post". We are a year and a half after…
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#148I find it hard to believe that it actually is a microcode issue. Mostly because Intel has way too much motivation to pass it off as a microcode issue, as they can fix a microcode issue for free, by pushing out a patch. If it's an actual hardware issue, then Intel will be forced to actually recall all the faulty CPUs, which could cost them billions. The other reason, is that it took them way too long to give details.…
That's how CPU design goes. The way that is done is by pushing as much to firmware as possible, adding chicken switches and fallback paths, and all sorts of ways to intercept regular operation and replace it with some trap to microcode or flush or degraded operation.
Applying fixes and workaround might cost quite a bit of performance (think spectre disabling of some kinds of branch predictors for an obvious very big one). And in some cases you even see in published errata they leave some theoretical correctness bugs unfixed entirely. Where is the line before accepting returns? Very blurry and unclear.
Almost certainly, huge parts of their voltage regulation (which goes along with frequency, thermal, and logic throttling) will be highly configurable. Quite likely it's run by entirely programmable microcontrollers on chip. Things that are baked into silicon might be voltage/droop sensors, temperature sensors, etc., and those could behave unexpectedly, although even then there might be redundancy or ways to compensate for small errors.
I don't see they "passed it off" as a microcode issue, just said that a microcode patch could fix it. As you see it's very hard from the outside to know if something can be reasonably fixed by microcode or to call it a "microcode issue". Most things can be fixed with firmware/microcode patches, by design. And many things are. For example if some voltage sensor circuit on the chip behaved a bit differently than expected in the design but they could correct it by adding some offsets to a table, then the "issue" is that silicon deviates from the model / design and that can not be changed, but firmware update would be a perfectly good fix, to the point they might never bother to redo the sensor even if they were doing a new spin of the masks.
On the voltage issue, they did not say it was requesting an out of spec voltage, they said it was incorrect. This is not necessarily detectable out of context. Dynamic voltage and frequency scaling and all the analog issues that go with it are fiendishly complicated, voltage requested from a regulator is not what gets seen at any given component of the chip, loads, switching, capacitance, frequency, temperature, etc., can all conspire to change these things. And modern CPUs run as close to absolute minimum voltage/timing guard bands as possible to improve efficiency, and they boost up to as high voltages as they can to increase performance. A small bug or error in some characterization data in this very complicated algorithm of many variables and large multi dimensional tables could easily cause voltage/timing to go out of spec and cause instability. And it does not necessarily leave some nice log you can debug because you can't measure voltage from all billion components in the chip on a continuous basis.
And some bugs just take a while to find and fix. I'm not a tester per se but I found a logic bug in a CPU (not Intel but commercial CPU) that was quickly reproducible and resulted in a very hard lockup of a unit in the core, but it still took weeks to find it. Imagine some ephemeral analog bug lurking in a dusty corner of their operating envelope.
Then you actually have to develop the fix, then you have to run that fix through quite a rigorous testing process and get reasonable confidence that it solves the problem, before you would even make this announcement to say you've solved it. Add N more weeks for that.
So, not to say a dishonest or bad motivation from Intel is out of the question. But it seems impossible to make such speculations from the information we have. This announcement would be quite believable to me.
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
Intel should take a page out of HP's book when it came to dealing with a bug in the HP-35 (first pocket scientific calculator): > The HP-35 had numerical algorithms that exceeded the precision of most mainframe computers at the time. During development, Dave Cochran, who was in charge of the algorithms, tried to use a Burroughs B5500 to validate the results of the HP-35 but instead found too little precision in the f…
I wonder if Mr. Packard's answer would have been different if a recall would have bankrupted the company or necessitated layoff of a substantial percentage of staff.
Re: July 2024 Update on Instability Reports on Intel Core 13th/14th Gen Desktop CPUs
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is that running at too high of a voltage for sustained periods can cause physical degradation of the chip in some cases. Hopefully not here!
> can cause physical degradation of the chip in some cases. Not in some cases. Chips always physically degrade regardless of voltage. Higher voltages will make it happen faster.