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Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

nytimes.com

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Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#141

Post by magicalhippo »

financltravsty wrote: post #127
magicalhippo wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm into sports shooting, and during winter our club has an indoor range that used to be an old bunker. So we're in this 25 foot by 60 foot concrete tunnel, that's about 8 feet tall at most. Not a giant cavern by any means. And closed doors, so just (forced) ventilation open to the outside. I've shot .357 magnum and shotguns in there. It's loud, yes. I wear ear plugs and ear muffs when doing that. But not by any mean…

An interesting thought popped off in my head: what if it does, and the crowd that leans heavily into enthusiast firearm usage is giving themselves micro-TBIs -- could that over the years create certain changes in personality and psychological workings that lead to certain, similar outcomes? E.g. could it be correlated with political affiliation? Don't read into it too much, though. This isn't snark or passive aggress…

The thing I suspect will prevent this from being an issue for sports shooters is that I'm not sure the energy in typical sport shooting calibers is enough to induce micro-TBIs.

Sports shooters who shoot larger calibers, ie a 7.62 NATO or higher in terms of sound energy, are typically shooting relatively few rounds at a time. Those who shoot a lot of rounds typically shoot smaller calibers.

Now, I think you might have a point when it comes to competitive practical/dynamic shooters[1], who shoot open division with hot .40 super loads or similar. Especially those, like in my club, who train a lot in indoor ranges.

However these would make up a relatively small percentage of the overall recreational shooters out there I imagine.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Practical_shooting

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#142

Post by Animats »

"It was not chronic traumatic encephalopathy, or C.T.E., which is found in football players and other athletes who have been repeatedly hit in the head. It was something new."

OK, so not that.

There are going to be a huge number of people with this problem from the Ukraine war. There haven't been years of artillery duels since WWII.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#143

Post by mc32 »

blue_dragon wrote: post #42
mc32 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you. But women can continue the line —society. Men can’t bear children —society dies. Men get sent to war, women stay in the homeland, many of the men may not return and the women may have to persevere, with sacrifice but society can push on. If it were reversed, that society may well collapse. The Spartans didn’t send their women off and let the men stay back in the homeland.

Would you be ok with mandatory draft registration for women if conscription began with only women aged 36 and above? National fertility would be unaffected, since women of that age rarely have children anyways. Then the draft would be gender-balanced and the war hawks would get more bodies for their machine. Everybody wins.

Not really, a society that sends women to war is more or less a cowardly society dressing it up as equality.

What sort of male sends the female to check on the noises that sound like an intruder in the wee hours of the night? Do they set turns and when it's her turn she's gotta check out the noises? Any gal married or shacked up with a guy like that should kick him out before night is over.

Can you imagine Paul asking Nancy to check out the basement noises in SF?

Also, those war hawks should see duty in the front lines. None of this sitting behind "green zones" directing grunts. Get out there, get in the line of fire. Imagine Washington, Nimitz, Yamamoto, Zhukov, etc., let's just phone it in.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#144

Post by mc32 »

ok_dad wrote: post #27
mc32 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you. But women can continue the line —society. Men can’t bear children —society dies. Men get sent to war, women stay in the homeland, many of the men may not return and the women may have to persevere, with sacrifice but society can push on. If it were reversed, that society may well collapse. The Spartans didn’t send their women off and let the men stay back in the homeland.

How many people do you think are in the military? It’s way below one percent in the USA. In the last war we fought, we lost barely any soldiers compared to the number deployed. It’s bad that we lost any, but your argument is logically null. Women aren’t just baby machines, in any case. Nothing is being “reversed” it’s just more equal if everyone is registered for selective service.

Take a look at Ukraine. They're running low on conscripts despite "modern warfare"

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#145

Post by justin66 »

djmips wrote: post #74
mlindner wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guns don't make shockwaves that damage your brain. Damage your hearing without ear protection, sure, but they're not sending shockwaves through your skull.

And how do you know that?

Shooting as a popular passtime has been around long enough that we know what the risks are: commonly tinnitus, rarely injuries related to what the firearm actually does, more rarely lead poisoning.

On the other hand, artillery and rockets are extremely loud. If you want to look it up and start comparing things, keep in mind that every 3 decibels represents a doubling in pressure, so a howitzer having twenty or thirty decibels on a handgun is actually saying a lot.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#146

Post by mc32 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #57
mc32 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These days we have a senate committee approving a bill that would register women for the draught… it’s getting closer. Men aren’t enough, for this machine, apparently.

We haven't drafted people since the Vietnam War. There's plenty of draft fodder to dig into without having to expand the eligibility criteria.

Which raises the question of why they thought they'd approve this bill in committee? It's still very odd, weird, ungentlemanly and somewhat uncivilized.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#147

Post by ocschwar »

snakeyjake wrote: post #11
ein0p wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it's because of whatever brain damage they may have encountered, or because they could not find meaning in their civilian lives? I've read it's often the latter in military men, especially the ones that really believed in the mission and experienced highly stressful life or death situations. They come back and they're taken aback by the mundane bullshit that our lives are in comparison to what they've be…

>Do you think it's because of whatever brain damage they may have encountered, or because they could not find meaning in their civilian lives? I have no idea. Strangely the most common thread seems to be the ones who off themselves went back home after getting out. Almost everyone I know who got out and stayed away from home is doing ok. Almost everyone I know who got out and went back home is a wreck. Some had TBI e…

Sounds like what makes military service a good path is that 1. enlisting puts you in a better place than the previous day or 2. the time in the service enables a step up of some kind afterwards.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#148

Post by justin66 »

mikl wrote: post #114
WalterBright wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In WW1, they called it "shell shock" for soldiers incapacitated without obvious injury. In WW2 it was called "battle fatigue", and now TBI. It seems the WW1 doctors got it right the first time.

Also, artillery has gotten bigger and boomier since then. If it was bad then, it’s likely worse now.

True, but we've got better protective equipment as well.

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#149

Post by Semaphor »

japhyr wrote: post #137
Doxon wrote: post #135

Misc info on weapon sound pressure. The Carl Gustav 8.4cm recoilless rifle now be procured by the Marines has a big back-blast through the typical venturi used by these kinds of weapons. In training, (Sweden at least) they are limited to the number of rounds they can fire. I do not know if this for merely hearing loss, or if there are concussive effects. Also, while "small arms" do not typically have concussive effec…

I live in a small town with a gun dealer who is not particularly thoughtful about others. One year he had a truck-mounted cannon made for the fourth of july parade, and he fired it off numerous times throughout the parade. Everyone who didn't already have their ears covered, including so many young kids, doubled over each time it went off. He just laughed at everyone, even with kids crying on both sides of the street…

And that’s not a crime?

Re: Pattern of brain damage is pervasive in Navy SEALs who died by suicide

#150

Post by cjbgkagh »

joegibbs wrote: post #96
munificent wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would also explain why accounts of "shell shock" and PTSD rose so dramatically during WWI but were less common in prior wars where explosions were less common.

That's interesting that at the time, in WW1, it was assumed to be a physical injury to the brain caused by the shockwave of exploding artillery shells (hence the name). A few years later a consensus evolved that it's a psychological problem caused by the stress of combat, which was the prevailing opinion for about 100 years. And now it's looking like it might actually be a physical injury caused by shockwave damage t…

Shell shock was considered related to neurasthenia (weak nerves) which is the 18th century name for ME/CFS. TBI, ME/CFS and PTSD are highly correlated for what I believe are the same genetic predisposition plus an environmental trigger.
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