Earlier quoted context omitted.
Outside of cities, the main ways to make a living is using the natural resources. Logging, mining, farming etc. Laws are made by city people, who think of work as something you do sitting by a desk. They see the countryside as a nature reserve to keep beautiful for their vacation trips. So they ban most commercial use of natural resources. This is part of what makes rural communities poor and desperate societies, sur…
As a counter point, in Western NC the National Forests are major tourist destinations, and many rural towns with no other industry to speak of are able to thrive because people come from all over to enjoy them. These towns are filled with businesses catering to tourists and there are plenty of jobs doing so. Logging isn't the only way for a community to profit from a forest, conservation can do this too.
US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
141–147 of 147 posts
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
You could look up the original Bureau of Land Management charter by congress, which does in fact mandate that the BLM's charter[1] is to manage federal lands with the goals of sustained resource yield: > The Congress declares that it is the policy of the United States that goals and objectives be established by law as guidelines for public land use planning, and that management be on the basis of multiple use and sus…
Thank you for the response and the reference information to root this conversation. I appreciate this statement, and have one question to ask: > The deal was very explicitly that federal land was to be managed to avoid a tragedy of the commons with regards to resource extraction. Resource extraction was one of the primary goals mandated by congress and no, they cannot simply decide they don't want to. Question: if we…
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
Which 'deal' specifically, could you provide a link so we can read more?
Anytime a post references the “feds” in such an ambiguous way, it seems like a flag for potential misunderstanding.
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#144The Federal government made a deal with forrest communities. We will have national forests that you won't get any property tax revenues from, but you will get revenue from the forestry, mining, and other economic activity on that land. Then the federal government shutdown most economic activity, and local communities had to shutdown their schools and other government functions (while at the same time losing their lum…
The rationale(s) for creating National Forests are multitude, but one good reason why they exist is in the Northeast the Green Mountain NF and White Mountain NF form the watersheds of multiple important rivers (Hudson, Connecticut, Androscoggin, etc) that are critical for industry and welfare (drinking water, etc). The federal govt recognized this a century ago and put these forests into management without putting th…
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
A sincere and big thank you for the response! The extra context and nuance are really useful to have. My reading list is already kinda long, I think that spares you from having to dig out any references :) My curiosity is perhaps most of what would interest a thru-hiker. I always want to learn more about how forests work, things like "bears would live here" - "these types of edible plants would grow here". If there a…
it depends on where you hike? "southeast medicinal plants" by coreypine shane would give you a lot of applicable information for the entire AT. i read "bear attacks" by stephen herrero last year before a backcountry trip in glacier national park and the information made me feel a lot more comfortable.
I'm in/around the Pac Northwest
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#146Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sorry to ask you to go through other threads, but would you mind picking out the ones that show your math? The link you did share, has this table: https://oldgrowthforestecology.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/0... It also states [1]: "On sites like Fairy Creek, old forests are estimated to store twice as much carbon as mature forests and six or more times as much as clearcuts. Productive coastal old forests can store up…
Edit: fuck it, I’ll just do the math again. See the bottom. They keep confusing the issue because they keep talking about storage. Because their underlying motivation is to have more old growth trees, and to pull carbon from the atmosphere as a secondary effect. Which hey, I get, they’re beautiful. But it’s still BS to say old growth is extracting carbon from the atmosphere faster than new growth . To see for yoursel…
Meanwhile, a few quicker responses:
> Regarding your comment on chopped down forests not being fire resistant - it’s actually the other way around. Non-existent trees and brush can’t burn.
True, but if we are trying to regrow a forest to capture the next round of resources & sequestration benefits - that area has to go from being a non-forest to a young forest. During that time it's very susceptible to fire. Even worse, if the area is being re-grown as tree farm, AFAIK it'll never become fire resistant.
Though, really the question is how do you continuously regrow trees and never have the area eventually burn and turn into a savannah? Given so much forests have been chopped down a few times since the 1800s in California. We are looking at maybe 2 to 4 rounds of trees being chopped down and regrown. Lots of younger forests create a component for larger forest fires.
> It’s why california (and other western states) keep catching on fire so badly, because logging has been so heavily restricted.
My understanding is fire suppression is more to blame. I'm curious where exactly our views differ & why.
For tinder box fires, I think it's a bit more complex than one factor & the combination of factors is not good. Essentially, forests were logged with impunity and at mass scale (still kinda true today) for a few hundred years, then in North America we started fire suppression on an industrial scale circa 1950. A lot of forest is young'ish and/or doesn't have the same fire resistance as what was before it - and combined with mass fire suppression & young'ish age -> it's a huge tinder box.
Though, you point to the lack of logging as the cause for the tinder box. To what extent would you say fire suppression has played a role in current western fires?
I'm a bit surprised we might disagree here, perhaps I'm ignorant how logging has kept the situation in check. My very (tersely stated) impression of things is essentially Europeans came, logged the crap out of the area, stopped letting the fires burn 70 years ago because we could do something about it and secondly there were then enough people in the area to care. Fast forward, the west coast is now very populated and the forests are kinda young and are regrowing in a full fire-suppression environment. Do you disagree with that (frank) assessment?
> In California’s climate, it requires cutting down a significant portion of trees and removing built up brush (or doing a controlled burn), or the whole thing turns into a mini-nuclear explosion waiting to go off.
I agree. Otherwise when a fire does comes through, it will potentially turn the area into a savannah (mini-nuclear explosion'esque). I've seen a few examples, it brings back memories. There certainly are forest fires, big ones, then even bigger ones that damage the forest, and then there are the ones in California that remove the forest..
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Again, thank you for digging up numbers & references. I want to go through those in a bit more detail before sharing any thoughts/questions
Re: US Forest Service proposes protections for old-growth trees, without logging ban
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
The planet was covered with forests before humans got involved in forest management. Why is it a bad idea to just leave the forests alone, declare them wilderness, and let the wildlife and ecosystem return to how it was?
This is a great question and proposal and it's how we got here. It's step 0, but it's not the end-all-be-all; as itself will create problems. You can let the forests grow, but you then _also_ have to let the other natural processes take place: disease and fire. Finally, you have to deal with something nature isn't good at: invasive species. So now we're onto steps 1 and 2: how do we protect these forests that we're r…